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EDITORIAL February 21, 1999 VNN3119 See Related VNN Stories Notes From A Think Tank BY GHQ EDITORIAL, Feb 21 (VNN) —
Section 2Favorable Women _____________________________ Please note that we have concealed the identity of our dear mothers who have written favorably about reinstating Vedic dharma for ladies. We wish that they not also be verbally brutalized or perhaps even have their lives threatened (as we have) because of their desire to follow the sastras.>From: "XYZ" <xyz @hotmail.com> >undeniable that she was qualified. But walking around saying woman's >rights woman's rights woman's rights seems like a waste of breath. >Prabhupada said in many places that women should be trained in womanly >duties from birth, which is accurate. Where has "freedom" gotten us in >this society of countries? The right to be used for sex and have unwanted >children? To give up protection that we have a Vedic right to? I was a "free" >woman when I was a teenager, mixing freely with males, thinking I was so >independent. So, what happened? I got pregnant and became a mother at >16. That's real independence huh? Now, since then I met a wonderful man >who has known the devotees a very long time he is 10 years my senior. I >have never had trouble admitting that he was the "man" of the house. I >take care of him and the children, they come first, then me. He cooks, I >cook. But he only cooks if I am sick or very worn out, because it is my job >and duty as a wife. And he is very satisfied and doesn't feel the need to go >seek other entertainment, or look for affairs or a more submissive woman, >because he has a respectful, caring wife who makes him feel like the man >he is. > >We abstain from sexual intercourse (until a couple months from now when >we plan to conceive a third child) and he is not bothered by that because it >is the true tradition we are supposed to adhere to as devotees of Krsna. It >the purport of BG Ch.1 verse 40 it says "good population DEPENDS on the >chastity and faithfulness of its womanhood." I don't think it is very faithful >when a woman is defiant or feels she needs to go out and find herself. I >believe it makes the man very frustrated and as though he is not the man >he should be, which encourages him to do things to make him feel like a >MAN, such as having affairs or showing his strength by being abusive. Now, >I know a lot of people might say, "Well you have never been abused so you >don't know what it's like.." which is true, to a degree that I have never >been physically abused. However, every relationship I have seen, the >women were very pushy and loud and disrespectful to their men, and the >men left or were unfaithful. I am the only one who was not feeling that >woman's lib thing and here I am married almost seven years and going >strong, while most of my "liberated, career minded" old friends have kids >with no father. Why? Because I respect my man and treat him like a man >and my teacher and the leader of this house, and I act like the woman of >this house. Woman that are in an abusive relationship and "can't" leave >gives more weight to the line in that same purport "as children are prone to >be misled, women are similarly prone to degradation." So many women >can't even see they are being abused, what of getting away from it. > >I am in agreement that something needs to be done about the women's >issues in ISKCON. I agree that many men mistreat the women, and that I am >lucky to have found a man who doesn't. But, if the marriage is based more >on like and dislike, instead of centered on Krsna, then it is doomed. I also >realize that not all women have been brought up to be womanly and don't >feel comfortable in that role and that is just the way they are. So be it. I >think people need to stop finger pointing and start trying to be constructive. >For example, setting up a grhasta ashram, where devotees from successful >devotee marriages teach single devotees the QUALITIES and >RESPONSIBILITIES of being in a devotee marriage. How the men should be >treated by their wives and how the wives should be treated by their >husbands. Also, working with the powers that be instead of coming across >like we are going to force them to give us this "freedom" to be gurus and >initiators and such. It is similar to getting angry when congressman won't >vote on term limits for themselves or smaller pay for themselves or less >benefits.Why would anyone vote for something that is going to bother them >or take away from them? Why would people want to give up their power >just to give it to someone else? However, if women get educated in how to >be qualified to hold these titles and show by peaceful demonstration that >they are qualified, then no one can refuse them with any basis...anyway:) > >Then, we start with the young girls and train them how to be the WOMEN >that they are and have pride in it, instead of trying to be the man. Also, >encourage grhastas to be "match-makers" based on God consciousness, not >on a material level, but like a father would do for his daughter. Use our >knowledge to match devotees together who are sincere in their devotion, >and train them how to fill their roles. Perhaps let them be "apprentices" by >living with different families and seeing how Vaisnava families should live. >What do you think? > >Anyway, sorry to take up so much of your time. If you feel as though I said >anything relevant or that might be useful in the conference, let me know. >I would like to go in there and support these ideas with you, of course only >if you feel you need support! I just really feel as though some of these >devotees aren't really trying to understand what you are saying, because it >might not be the most popular idea right now, but it is the right idea. If >your a woman, act like one, right? Draupadi didn't feel degradation or >humiliation in doing her duties why should we? > >I also wondered if I could ask how long you have been married? I also >wanted to say that I miss your e-mails about what you did for your >Bhagavad-Gita lessons. I found them so helpful, I hope you can find time >to write some more. Thank you, and by all means, if you would rather I just >mind my own business, tell me. I just have had a hard time in this com >finding anyone who I agree with very much, and your words really make >sense and that thing you posted about Draupadi has really helped me in >trying to be a good Vaisnava wife. Thanks for listening, write anytime, and >Hare Krsna! > >Your humble and supportive servant, >xyz ---------------------------------------- >> From: Sita dd <btb@georgian.net> >(supposedly) well educated, completely financially self sufficient and >EXTREMELY independent. Needless to say my false ego was much, much >larger than average. > >By some special mercy I have undergone a quite transformation over the >years and have reduced my heavy western conditioning and have actually >managed to develop some more feminine qualities. I do not claim any credit >for this personally, but I would like to say one thing. Despite a lot of >resistance on my part, I always believed that ultimately I had to do my >duty as a wife and mother in order to please Srila Prabhupada and Krsna. >This word "duty" was never in my vocabulary and I had never, ever had >the experience of having done any duty to anyone for anything. > >It has been a long hard slog, and without any senior association or guidance, >but now the rewards are finally forthcoming. > >I am convinced that Dharma of Women conference is essential to our >movement, not just for the women but for everyone. > >Your servant, >xyz d.d. ------------- >Date: Sat, 11 Jul 98 22:20 -0700 > >But, in my humble opinion, most of the discussions are grounded in material >considerations and aspirations. This is not why I came to Krsna >consciousness. I have had my fill of this materially centered nonsense, and >am seeking higher goals. > >Would you kindly consider adding me to this DOW conference? Thank you! > >yours, aspiring to be a servant, >xyz --------------------------------- It is said on IWC that discontent toward feminists comes from DOW...But actually it comes from SP's books. Text COM:1515027 (58 lines) Letter COM:1693220 (68 lines) >I'm a member of your conference Dharma of women. This conference helped >me a lot to realize what a fool I was (and probably still am). I have been >thinking all my life that women have to be equal to men. What a nonsense. >I realized that now thanks to you and other wonderful devotees on DOW. >Specially Mataji Jayasri helped me a lot to realize some things. I realized >that all "fights" we had with my husband were all due to my wanting to be >independent and in charge of everything. > >Thank you for showing me the right way. Here in my country the majority >of women (in ISKCON) think that this is some strange philosophy I'm talking >about. > >Your husband once wrote that you are a very good cook and that you are >making wonderful pizzas and pasta. Could you please send me recipe for >this dishes. I would also like to satisfy my husband by cooking him good >pasta and pizza. > >I'm really a lousy cook. We are very short on money and I all the time >make excuses that I don't cook well because I don't have enough money for >bhoga. I just don't know how to become a better cook. So I would really like >to ask you if you could help me by sending these recipes. > >Sorry for my lousy English. I'm trying my best to improve it. > >I have also one another problem. I would appreciate your help in this >regard very much. I just don't know how to manage time. You have to help >your husband to run the business then you have four children and all house >work and all the sadhana (chanting, reading, ...). How do you manage all >this? > >We don't have children. I don't work outside. I still go to school. My last >year. Oh, I forgot to introduce myself. I'm ab years old. My name is xyz >Devi dasi. I'm married for n years. My prabhu's name is xyz das and is mn. >we are disciples of HH xyz Swami. Our Guru Maharaj >said to us on the >darshan when he accepted us that actually my guru is my husband. Just >now Our Guru Maharaj was in xyz and initiated few devotees. One of them >was mataji (not married). He said to her that in the future he will no longer >initiate matajis who are not married. So she was the first and the last one. > >We plan to have children in the following year. First I have to get my >health back. I'm on some Ayurvedic treatment for another four months. > >Well I talked a lot. I hope you don't mind me writing you out of nowhere. > >Hope you and your family are all well. > >Hare Krishna!... (Text COM:xxxxxxx) ----------------------------------------- Letter COM:1693096 (28 lines) to read Shyamasundara's comments and agree with him - he is also offering a very balanced viewpoint on this conference, what I've seen of it. I also read your other letter saying that in regular Vedic society, when a woman wishes to convey something she does so through her husband. This is something also that we western women are not used to, and which brings me to my final point. You end your letter requesting that I pay my obeisances on your behalf to my husband. Either you are confusing me with someone else, or you are presuming too much. I don't have a husband. But I'll be sure to pass on the message when I get one! Your servant Xyz dasi (TKG) (Text COM:1693xyz) ----------------------------------------- Part of a personal letter to a GHQ member. The rest is not pertinent to the subject at hand: September 18, 1998 Letter COM:1868xyz (133 lines) some disagreements, especially between the older ladies (Prabhupada disciples like Sudharma and Jyotirmayi) and the younger, more liberated ones like Madhusudani and Hariballabha. The younger ones are very eager to interpret Prabhupada or disregard him totally, which the older ones cannot accept. There are also ladies like Dhyanakunda who have their own special views (some mixture of everything), and do not mind to align themselves with anything, as long as they are not prevented from giving class and showing their brilliance in public (by giving seminars and talking in open forums). I am sorry to hear that you had so much trouble with Sudharma and her supporters. Here in Europe the Women's Ministry is active only in Germany, so one doesn't hear about it very much, what to speak of seeing it doing anything. Now I can understand why you have such a strong stand against them. . .ys, XYZdd (Text COM:1868xyz) ----------------------------------------- XYZ@com.bbt.se > > My opinion is this: most women who are truly chaste, shy, and a good > > thousand times, and so has my marriage, since I have attempted to be > > more surrendured to my home and husband. And he in turn has never > > been more surrendured to me, while being my strong protector. 2.11 Mayapura Vaisnavis on the Issues It might appear that the Mayapur Vairagis (Brahmacharis/Vanaprasthas/ Sannyasis) are against the women leading kirtan, doing puja and giving SB class in the temple and that this is a vairagi vs. mataji issue. But it could also be a question of one culture vs. the other culture. Someone might assume that because they are brahmacharis, they are harboring strong feelings about it. Actually, it is not only the brahmacharis but some of the Indian women who have been brought up traditionally (and Western women) also spoke to us very strongly against introducing such women-related "reforms". They were wondering what is the need for such "reforms". We asked our elderly cook Her Grace *** Mataji. She is a Bengali (Bangladeshi) Vaishnavi, second-initiated, 60 years old. She bathes in the Ganga daily and is very (grand-) motherly meaning affectionate. She is learned; she studies the Bhagavatam (She is in the Fifth Canto now). Here is her bold "radical" view of this issue (all emphasis hers): "Women sitting on the Vyasaasana in the temple room and giving class?! Them leading kirtan in the temple room??! Doing puja in the temple???!! NO! These things are not in accordance with the scriptures [eitaa saastra-anusaara naai]. These have not been instituted by the previous acharyas [eitaa puurbaachaarya-dvaaraa anusthita naai]. These things are dangerous for women. "Why can't they sit in their home and do these things? What is the difficulty in their doing puja at home to Deities? They can have kirtan at home twice a day. So what is the problem? Then the Lord Himself will come and take us to Him personally. It is greatly sinful to try to break conventions which have been established and instituted by exalted realized souls. "How can we understand exactly what Srila Prabhupada was thinking why he asked some disciple of his to speak to sannyasis? Vaishnavera kriyaa-mudra vijna naa bujhaya. But Srila Prabhupada says so many times in the Srimad Bhagavatam that women have specific duties and only by following these duties can they attain auspicious results. "We women are paapa-yoni, born of a lower family. Do they want to degrade themselves further? If I tell this to Westerners, they will want to beat me up. So what to do? This is the unfortunate situation at present." On being asked, "But how can you say that you are paapa-yoni? You are a Vaishnavi!" "I say that because THE SASTRA SAYS IT. I read it in Srila Prabhupada's books! We are TRYING to become Vaishnavis. According to the sastras, we are niicha-jaati (of low birth). That is a FACT. The sastra says it and I follow sastra. That's all. "How can someone claim to be a Vaishnavi and NOT do her womanly duties? Why is it that I observe so many brahmacharinis "talking" to boys? Vaishnavis do not do that. Women do that. Vaishnavi means like that disciple of Haridas Thakura who renounced everything and simply served Tulasi and chanted all the time. But we are so fallen and so we cannot follow her. So let us live under the care of the Vaishnava husband and Gurudeva. Bas. "We are by nature paraadhiina (dependent) all the time. We have to be under our father till we are married. Then we have to be under the husband. And later we have to be under the son. Like you are almost my grandsons. Still I will eat after you eat even though you insist that I eat with you. Trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna. This is our heritage. This is what Bhagavan likes. I know that if I follow my duties Krishna Himself will come and personally with His own hands, take me back to Him. This is what has been taught and followed by all the great acharyas in the past. "What would people think of us if we allow women to do these things in the temple? They will just say that we are indeed a videshi apasampradaya. Very very bad for prachaar (preaching)." Three other Vaishnavis Mother*** , Mother *** and Mother *** gave a statement on these topics. Mother ***, wife of *** Prabhu, is handling the accounts of the ***, while studying for Chartered Accountancy and taking care of her two sons. Besides she is a great cook. *** Mataji and *** Mataji are working in Srila Jayapataka Maharaja's Office. Here is their combined statement (all emphasis theirs): "Though we are not the body, we do HAVE a body. And since we have a woman's body, we HAVE TO FOLLOW THE RULES AND RECOMMENDATIONS prescribed in Vedic culture and which have been INSTITUTED IN VEDIC CULTURE and which has been accepted by all acharyas including Srila Prabhupada for what a woman can do and what she cannot do. It's simple. "What's the big deal? We have OUR code of cultural etiquette to get to Krishna and the men have theirs. We don't think that Srila Prabhupada ever said that when women become Vaishnavis they can/should break the code of cultural etiquette meant to be followed by women in Vedic culture and that too in Mahaprabhu's birthplace, Mayapur. "We cannot conceive of how Vaishnavis can be allowed to do public worship to Radha Madhava on the altar in Mayapur. It is not the sva-dharma of Vaishnavis to do that on the temple altar. Maybe if there is a circumstance where there are no brahmacharis in the temple or no men around, alright. But in Mayapur there are hundreds of brahmacharis. So WHAT IS THE NECESSITY for Vaishnavis to do puja or arati here? AND THAT WILL REALLY LOOK BAD! Is that what Srila Prabhupada wanted? Did he instruct that in a temple where there are so many brahmacharis and men that we SHOULD have women (Vaishnavis) do the arati? "When women are on the altar, it is the natural tendency for men (temple residents and scores of visitors) to look at the woman performing arati. It is well known that men like to hang around cinema halls, girl's schools, colleges, etc. just to lust at women. If we have a woman offering arati, then it is just natural that the minds of the men will dictate them to lust at the woman. THIS IS NOT AT ALL AUSPICIOUS for the woman or the men because neither the woman who offers arati nor the men who observe her are pure devotees. "We don't know what the other women think, but those of us who have been carefully trained up in Indian culture find it OBNOXIOUS to be on the limelight and allow our bodies to be observed by so many men. The same holds for leading kirtans as the temple kirtan and giving Bhagavatam class in the temple room. "What is the problem for the Vaishnavis? They can certainly do puja/ arati/ kirtans in their homes. Why SPECIFICALLY in the temple? Why not at homes? It is better for Vaishnavis to not be so manly. We would like to be the women that Srila Prabhupada wants us to be and we would like to see this kind of cultural development encouraged here. "This mood of "Oh! The men are doing this; we will ALSO do it!" seems to be more competitive than spiritual. "In any case, if we want to do arati or lead kirtan for Radha Madhava, we can do it in our mind. What is the problem? We can do arati to Radha Madhava 20,000 times a day. Nobody is stopping us. According to the shastra we get the SAME result anyway. We would rather go for the result than try to get the recognition and appreciation that we are leading kirtan in the temple hall disregarding Vedic conventions. "It appears to us that these demands may not be really motivated by desires for purely pleasing the Lord. The Lord has created Vedic culture where His male-bodied devotees and female-bodied devotees could serve in ways appropriately (not in the same way). Rather than consider a few activities of Srila Prabhupada on how he dealt with women and try to push forward the idea that Vaishnavis NEED to do the same activities as the male-bodied devotees, we would like to focus on the larger body of Srila Prabhupada's teachings on what the DUTIES of Vaishnavi women are. And we think that Vaishnavis (resident and visiting) SHOULD focus on these aspects of what their duties are, at least here in Mayapur and help us in that way. Otherwise this is simply a CULTURAL DISTURBANCE to us and our families. "When women behave like women usually do in Vedic culture, they are naturally more respected. It is also satisfying to the women when they learn to be chaste and submissive. This is our culture and we would like to help Vaishnavis understand their specific duties in the context of traditional Vaishnava culture. "In the beginning when ISKCON was growing up in India, Prabhupada might have done certain things but now ISKCON is well-established in India and we are trying to convince the Indian populace that we are not a foreigner's cult but that we are traditional Vaishnavas (and Vaishnavis) trying to preserve and revive Vedic culture which offers great hope to thousands of Indians who are dissatisfied by India's cultural degradation and rapid Westernization. "Srila Prabhupada might have done something extra-ordinary at times. How can we try to fathom what he was thinking each moment? We cannot imitate Srila Prabhupada. We should focus on what our duties are as Vaishnavis and carry them out and try to be proper Krishna conscious wives and mothers. If the international Vaishnavis could help us and others in the context of traditional Vaishnava culture, that would be very good. "We don't think that in Mayapur Vaishnavi's talents are not being sufficiently used for Krishna or that no one is encouraging them to develop to their full potential. Just look at Srimati (HKS)! SHE IS A LEADER! She is so cultured and so naturally she is respected here. So many Vaishnavis are happy doing so many services here. They do book distribution (Sati Mataji (HKS) and others) and other services. "There is no discrimination against women or something here. We are just trying to do what Srila Prabhupada wanted: preserve and revive the Vedic culture here and this is so good for the preaching too." Another Indian-bodied Vaishnavi (name withheld upon request) said: If they allow Vaishnavis to sit on the Vyasasana in the temple room to give Bhagavatam class, I won't enter the temple as long as she gives class. This is a sign that ISKCON is becoming Americanized. ***dd (HKS) from ***: Why should we do something that is disturbing to the local community both within ISKCON and outside of ISKCON? We have to remember that women traditionally didn't have the access to render devotional service that Prabhupada has given us by his causeless mercy. To demand more is like this: Imagine someone gives you some sweets out of his or her mercy. If you start demanding that I need nuts WITH sweets, is that good? In the first place you are not really entitled to the sweets; so how can you demand nuts? We should just accept whatever has been given by Srila Prabhupada. There are more ladies who think similarly but we haven't got their written views. Cultural Disturbances in Mayapura ________________________________________ There are some cultural disturbances which are related to this issue which some of the ladies wanted to be heard by the Mayapur leaders. Some of the Indian ladies were disturbed when Western women came to them and told them to NOT follow rules of personal hygiene which they have been traditionally by followers of Vedic culture (or at least traces of culture). They complained that when they are in a contaminated state and they do not want to enter the temple room, the Western ladies come to them and pressure them to give up their cultural upbringing which has been impressed upon them so carefully by their mothers. "These ladies are not satisfied to either learn or follow cultural rules; but why do they have to come to us and tell us, 'You are in MAYA because you are following these rules! Prabhupada never taught us this!' If they don't want to follow these rules, fine. But why do they have to pressure us and preach to us? We don't need lessons on cultural traditions from these Western ladies." *** devi dasi told us this: One day Gopi dd [pseudonym to protect identity] went to some classes conducted by the Women's Ministry during the Festival. She then came back very happy. The next day I came to know that she fought with her husband. Then she came to me and complained why I was submissive to my husband. She told me, "You shouldn't be a parasite, you know! You should be independent. He's after all a husband, just another individual. You are more than simply a wife. You have to learn to express your individuality." Another day Maalaa dd [another pseudonym], who also was a fan of the Women's Ministry, told me to NOT listen to my husband or be submissive to him. "Come on, he's only a husband. You should not be dependent on your husband. You should be independent. Who knows? What if he divorces you?" It appears from this that some sort of control/ education should be exercised on devotees who have come from Western background on how to deal with or at least tolerate and not stop those who are trying to follow (traces of) traditional Vedic/ Vaisnava culture. The other last point was with regards to Madhusudani Radha Devi Dasi's putting up her critique of ISKCON Mayapur's policy on the Internet for the whole world to see.***-born Mother *** (HKS), wife of *** pr opines: Even if she do not like something about ISKCON Mayapur, why should she put it on the Internet for the whole vikarmi world to see? She is a part of ISKCON. We are also a part of the same ISKCON. So how can she publicly tell the whole materialistic world what in-house problems we have? This is certainly shameful behavior. You may have some problem with your family members but that doesn't mean that you advertise your in-house problems to the whole world! This is certainly not fitting the behavior of a gentleman or lady. Those who are imbued with a sense of shame will certainly understand this point but those who have no concept of shame will never. First of all, we have to become a nice person and then become a nice devotee. A nice person will never bring bad name to his or her family. He or she will never advertise his/her family's faults to vikarmis. If someone goes ahead and publicly denounces a part of her family, it means that she does not really like or appreciate the family at all. I am also living in this spiritual family of ISKCON since many years and I have seen many many mistakes but I cannot imagine bringing bad name to ISKCON in front of vikarmis. Let us learn to keep our problems to ourselves and try to solve them ourselves. Why put them up on the Internet for the nasty materialists to see? This is not how we deal in the mode of goodness. In the mode of goodness, nobody will like to break up a family. They will try to keep the family together. See Related VNN Stories | Comment on this Story This story URL: http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9902/ET21-3119.html
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