If this is going to be a logistical problem I will volunteer to be the
organizer of the conference to facilitate the smooth flow of operations. I
have been the organizer of my own astrology conference for 5 years so I can
do the needful without any inconvenience. Is that alright with every one?

If it is then have Raktambara put me as the organizer.

yhs
shyama
(Text COM:1708182) -------------------------------------------------------

1. who should organize it,
2. need for ladies' input,
3. decorum; how the men should or should not speak, etc.

(We have indicated the other two ladies as ABC and XYZ. Due to so many ">", the thread may be difficult to follow, but basically it proceeds thus: Mother Sita dd wrote a letter and ABC answered. Then Shyamasundara Dasa commented on those letters. Finally, there is an answer from XYZ, suggesting how we should make our presentation. She emphasizes that we should be careful in our manner of speaking to the ladies and also comments on the agenda.)

>Jivan Mukta Dasa wrote:

maybe Jivan Mukta Prabhu could co-ordinate with Rasananda Swami a case
to be presented to the GBC at Mayapur. After they've prepared a paper, they could circulate it in this group first & we could give our suggestions.

>What do you all think?

This seems to be the best way to proceed. Start work now--there is much
To be done.

>Dear Prabhus and Maharajas,

>PAMHO. AGTSP.

>I would like to suggest that we involve the following devotees in compiling >this paper or series of papers to present to the GBC.

Ameyatma prabhu
Shyamasundara Prabhu
Vidva Gauranga Prabhu
Guru-Krsna Prabhu
Mother ABC
Mother XYZ
Sita dd. (my wife)

I feel it is very important that we address all the points brought up in the papers presented by Mothers Jyotirmayi, Pranada and Visakha. Their misunderstandings must be clearly exposed. We can either do so as a point

>Thanks for including me in this important decisions-----
>
>I am not familiar with M. Jyotirmayi's and Pranada as well as
>Madhusudharani's papers - if possible you can mail me the copies at ***
> temple address or Sita has my home address - XYZ
>
>by point rebuttal or they may be addressed by presenting a comprehensive

>Personally, I have noticed many times that if you use the above method
>of point by point rebuttal, 99% of the people (especially devotees) think it is >personal attack based on personal differences - devotees usually get caught >up in the issue of the arguments instead of understanding the point of the >subject - I have seen this happen many times on debates among devotees, >they start bringing personal judgements and attacks to each other and go >off the tangent. I have noticed that your method of argument and >presentation (like Ameyatma prabhus) is >very focused, to the point and >based on nitisastra as B.Vikas M. had outlined-yet I have noticed in the past >that even so called learned and educated devotees misunderstand the >purpose and caught up in a personal way. Therefore the above method >should be secondary and brief in my opinion. Otherwise as in most cases >your arguments goes over the heads of the opponents (as was the case with >Visakha's paper) - remember you are dealing with people with low >intelligence (I say this because in the first place if they had any intelligence >this issue would not occur by appointing women in such positions and >secondly there are women involved in the debate) So my suggestion is that >you make your presentation according to the understanding abilities of the >opponent. It is a shame not to have an equal caliber opponent for debate.
>

paper dealing with the categories outlined below. Or we could do both.
Please give your feedback on this summary. What else should be added or
removed? Should it be structured in an entirely different manner? This is
sent out to start the process.

>I think it should be addressed direct to the point expressing dissatisfaction >and disapproval of devotees concerned regarding the GBC appointing >women in such positions, especially emphasizing on two main points - Srila >Prabhupad's instructions on women in management andthe less intelligent >nature of women and what happens to the country where women are >leaders. It is not necessary to base the argument on personal character and >history of the individual involved (because this is sensitive issue and it >conjures personal emotions - remembering the kind of audience we are >dealing with) - Also we are dealing with the concept of 'women in >leadership in general' not only single issue of one woman in a GBC position - >it can be any leadership position - the whole concept --achha--when one >brings up less intelligent nature of women - one should also lighten the >issue by pointing out the good qualities of women as the representatives of >goddess of fortune (I do not like to use the traditional Sanskrit name here >because it is too precious to use it lightly) Maybe the good should be >mentioned before the other. There is a list in Manu Samhita on women and >prosperity.---Someone has posted Manu Samhita translations on the net it >will be a handy reference.
>
>I see your category outline as proposal reminder to implement Varnashram >Dharma in ISKCON - it may not serve as direct note of disapproval. It is >rendering solutions to the existing problem, which could >accompany the opposition paper.
>
>First we have to make them see the wrong then we can give the solutions.
>The disapproval, opposition or disagreement paper, whatever you may
>decide to call it - may include some of the points from that category which
>I shall mark.

There were some very disturbing remarks made by certain GBC members
regarding this women's issue. In particular Mukunda Maharaja made some
extremely perverse remarks about *what Prabhupada would do today*. I feel this type of remark and attitude must also be addressed. Please note that we are well on our way of categorizing all the text on the DoW conference.

Many of the texts will be helpful in isolating the various arguments used
against dharma and the various scriptural rebuttals. We could make those
available to the devotees working on the various categories. We could also
send the entire archive out to whomever requests it.

I will be quite tied up during the next two weeks especially during November to December. I will do whatever I can to help. Time is of essence and at least if we have our format we could seek input and assistance from the assembled devotees. We could also provide the many quotes and scriptural reference to the devotees that require some research assistance. I am very encouraged by the resolve of you Prabhus and Matajis in seeing that Prabhupada's movement becomes the glorious representation of Vedic culture it was intended to be. I offer my respectful obeisances to you all.

Note:

1. Vidvan Gauranga Prabhu has already prepared a paper entitled "The
Whole Problem". It was a cogent response to some feminist propaganda by
Madusudhani Radha dd., Pranada dd. and others. He also sent a proposal
To the GBC EC entitled "Proposal to establish & preserve sannyasa-, stri- &
grhastha-dharmas." With Vivan Gauranga Prabhu's permission, I could
forward these files to the assembled devotees. Waiting for your feedback.
>
>I would certainly appreciate this material.
>
2. Ameyatma Prabhu has many books available on his homepage that could
be used as they are or could be referenced for many of these issues. He has
also volunteered to present a seminar in Toronto on "Teaching the Principles
of Dharma to Our Children" and " Marriage of the Daughter" emphasizing the importance of Chastity and the importance of Protecting Women's Chastity.

3. Guru-Krsna Prabhu has volunteered to present a paper on Divorce for a
proposed summer of 1999 Dharma Symposium in Toronto.

4. Mother XYZ has a course of Vedic morality from which she teaches.

>Correction please - the course is called Overview of Vedic Culture and
>Daivi-Varnashram. (what do I know about morality? I was born and raised
>in Africa, lived in the western world and my only saving Grace is His
>Divine Grace Srila Prabhapada's books).

5. Jayasila Prabhu the grhastha Minister could be invited to participate. He has a manual on the Grhastha ashrma and has expressed his support for
the objectives of the DoW Conference.

6. I have prepared a few a essays entitled:
i) Gender Ethics, Compassionate Compromises (KC in the Early Days)
ii) Lord Caitanya did not reject VAD. >---This could be very important >for our ISKCON sanyasis to know. I am glad someone has written this.
>I would very much like to see these papers - Specially Gender Ethics
>could be useful in the presentation of the above paper.

Maybe someone may want to look at what has already been prepared and
determine how to proceed.

Ys.
Jivan Mukta Dasa


PRESENTATION FORMAT (For discussion purposes only)

I. Prabhupada's instructions on:
1. dharma of women (wives, daughters and mothers)
2. women as leaders
3. women as subordinate to men
4. the behavior of chaste women
a. shyness
b. faithfulness to husband
c. serves and sees the husband as guru

>you can add
>d. takes on the mission of the husband.
>e. equally serves and

>respects husband's relatives.

> 5. The principle of protecting women
> 6. women as* less intelligent*
> 7. women's *varna*

>I would love to hear what you have to say on this - according to my
>understanding she is categorized with vaisya and Sudra as mentioned in
>BG. And as you had pointed out in the example of Sati.

8. education of our daughters
a. as the proof of what Prabhupada expected of
future generations
b. as a tool for re- introducing and reviving the
Vedic culture
9. marriage of our daughters
a. kanya-daya

>(this seems like it should be kanya-dana.)
i. father's religious obligation to daughter and society
ii. getting her married early
b. polygamy
10. divorce and re-marriage
11. his opinions and statements on women's liberation and
equal rights ---------
>This should definately be included in the presentation.

II. How Prabhupada applied these principles in Iskcon
1. separate facilities for men and women in temples
a. Iskcon's defect - presence of women in the temples
b. women's ashramas
c. women and sannyasis
d. making the best out of a bad bargain
2. gradual introduction of all the rules and regulations

III. Boiling the Milk - Increasing our application and intensifying our
adherence to Vedic dharma
1. As the introduction of VAD into Iskcon
2. The dynamic nature of a missionary movement -------

> This definately involves women's participation in a lot of preaching
> activities - how would address that?.

a. hard as thunder bolts on senior initiated devotee
b. soft as a rose with new comers
3. Strictly censuring all irresponsible men
a. physically, emotionally, and spiritually abusive to wives and children
b. regional councils of exemplary grhastha men to provide
their assistance, experience, guidance and scriptural direction
i. to each other
ii. to all grhastha devotees
iii. to establish women's ashramas and widow protection

iv. to insure that the local temples are preaching and supporting dharma

IV. Women's *equal rights*
1. Demoniac concept "puffed up concept of womanly life" BG 16.7

>----------- Certainly should be included.

2. results in adultery BG1.40
3. symptom of Kali-yuga
4. *gender* etiquette observed in Vaikuntha

>--------they would refute by saying what does it have to do with material >world we are now living in .

5. supported and promoted by irresponsible men
6. as mayavada
7. as artificial
8. what Prabhupada expected from *our women*

>---------this is part of the solution not the actual disagreement on the issue.
>
>So these are my humble opinions. I certainly think that Jivan Mukta
>prabhu should write the proposal with Basu Goshes input and Ameyatma's
>modification. Thank you for allowing me to participate ys XYZ dasi