We took this time to transcribe all the lengthy discussions we had with Maharaj.

We are only presenting the highlights of the talk. Interested readers please send your responses for the entire transcription material, send your responses to goloka@vsnl.com

Preamble

1. Is It Offensive to Discuss ISKCON’s Guru Issue?

It is sometimes argued that a devotee in ISKCON is turning offensive when he discusses a view that opposes the currently held GBC views on the subject of the constitutional status of an ISKCON guru. This opinion is more intensely extended by its supporters to situations when a devotee challenges or refutes viewpoints held by the person who has formally initiated him and as a result, is conventionally understood to be his guru. And hence, right at the outset, we find it extremely relevant to point out that such an opinion holds no water for the following clear reasons:

1. The very subject of the constitutional status of the ISKCON guru is under great discussion, (atleast since two decades now) with a wide cross-section of devotees contributing their views, including the members of the GBC.
2. Though the efforts of the ISKCON’s topmost body the GBC (consisting of highly qualified & capable individuals) to present a "final siddhanta" on the above issue have since the early 80’s been steadily consistent and appreciable (resulting in a fair number of papers), the fact remains undisputed that even today no GBC understanding exists on this matter which can be honored with the adjectives such as "final" or "conclusive".
3. Adding to the point made above, it may be worthwhile to note that even amongst the individual members of the GBC differences of opinion prominently exist on various details of the above subject, with certain GBC members even fully subscribing to the view (considered by other GBC members as directly opposing theirs) that Srila Prabhupada’s July 9^th directive to conduct initiations using the ritvik system was his permanent directive to do the same.
4. Devotees who join ISKCON seeking sincere spiritual guidance (many of them after rejecting bright material careers), with genuine concern for the expanding the movement of their beloved Master Srila Prabhupada, whose words and activities have created revolutions in their living and thinking possess an undisputed prerogative to bring up and discuss matters they feel very relevant to establishing the well-being of an otherwise "fast drowning" ISKCON of today.

Having stated the above, we honourably appeal to all interested parties to judge the actions of a devotee who indulges in raising questions, organizing discussions, proposing solutions or seeking alternatives in the subject matter of Gurus and Initiations in ISKCON, with radical fair-mindedness.

At this juncture, the words of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada will throw further light on the point we are trying to make: "Everything will become clear if you kindly read this chapter with attention. For example, we see that two lawyers in the courtroom may fight vigorously about a law point, but upon returning to the law library, they talk and embrace like friends. So you should always remember that we have no ill feelings towards Vallabha Bhattacarya. We have full respect for him, so there is no harm if these facts are discussed in the society of devotees. Devotees always humbly offer respect to everyone, but when there is a discussion on a point of sastra, they do not observe the usual etiquette, satyam bruyat priyam bruyat. They speak only the satyam, although it may not necessarily be priyam."

And therefore, conscious as we remain of the possibility that our words may not necessarily be priyam and that our behaviour may be interpreted as a breach of etiquette, we nevertheless proceed, having taken shelter of the above advice given by Srila Prabhupada, with undying determination to humbly present what we have come to understand as the best and most practical solution for this most crucial problem confronting ISKCON today — simply restore the system for future initiations in ISKCON that Srila Prabhupada himself established before his departure.

2. A GBC should atleast know the ABCs.

The December ’98 visit of His Holiness Jayapataka Swami, local GBC, saw three intense meetings with the Bangalore temple devotees, on the ongoing issue of gurus and initiations in ISKCON. During these meetings, the temple devotees presented their views on the matter (most of which conforming to what is commonly known as "ritvik-vada"), which they had formed after several months of study and research on the subject.

Taking extreme care to avoid offences to any individual or group, devotees placed before His Holiness their conclusions supported by clear logic & reasoning. The devotees ultimately requested His Holiness to revert back to his original role of a ritvik, assigned to him by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada and promised him full support and cooperation in executing it efficiently in Bangalore

Quite unexpectedly however, an additional flavour was introduced in the mood of the discussions as His Holiness issued certain statements - statements which in themselves could trigger additional controversies and could aptly be termed "highly debatable". Presented below are these very statements that His Holiness made, in attempts to defend his views, which we strongly oppose. Pretty soon, it became clear to the devotees present (as we can see at the end of this essay) that it would be impossible to make much ground in these discussions primarily because the person with whom they were discussing, though the GBC of the area, was not himself very clear in his own understanding on the subject.

It may again be emphasized that our attempt to set things right in ISKCON may not be misconstrued as expressions of any personal grudge against anyone in general or His Holiness Jayapataka Swami in particular.

Our obeisances to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada and all the Vaishnavas.

2A. Please examine the following extract from the recordings of the 2^nd day of the meetings. The question under discussion was about the use of the words "my initiated disciple" in Srila Prabhupada’s Will, which Jayapataka Maharaja explained actually was a result of the "spaced-out" condition of the disciples who compiled the will.

Jayapataka Swami: … The Will is not even personally compiled by Srila Prabhupada. Actually, it was compiled by Giriraj. There’s a discussion which was recorded on 2^nd June 1977. Giriraj says ‘so we drafted a Will including the Trust with the properties of India and some of the other’.…. it continues… Why the devotees added the words ‘my initiated disciple’ in a final text is an interesting little story. On May 27^th the devotees read the first draft to Srila Prabhupada. For Vrindavan, the draft proposed 3 trustees including Viswambar Dayal, better known as Bharatji a friend of ISKCON who helped in Vrindavan. The following discussion ensued (reads out from a Srila Prabhupada conversation extract from the folio):

Devotee : ‘Prabhupada , Viswambar is not a regular disciple.

Jayapataka: shouldn’t be included.

Prabhupada: then he has to accept Sanyas from me.

Jayapataka: Trustee must be initiated disciple.

Prabhupada: Oh yes.

You see in that discussion, I said that the trustee should be an initiated disciple. I didn’t say Prabhupada disciple or any disciple. I just said ‘initiated’. Prabhupada said yes. This is actually what was agreed by Prabhupada…. So why didn’t they use more appropriate words? We asked Giriraj Maharaj and he said we won’t use far thinking like that. In retrospect it’s very naïve. At that time because there were only Prabhupada’s disciples, (we) didn’t think about it. That’s his mistake. So Giriraj says we were all spaced out. We were all like that. So to claim a space out is indication does not really hold out.

Comments:

Pray, what are we to make out of this completely innovative explanation of Jayapataka Maharaja in the matter of usage of words in Srila Prabhupada’s will?

a. Should we take it that since the compilers of the Final Will were actually "spaced-out", the entire Will may also not be taken seriously?

b. Or, since Srila Prabhupada was apparently assisted by "spaced-out" disciples even when he was sometimes doing very critical things like drafting the Will, we should henceforward become very wary of what we read in Srila Prabhupada’s books and other documents which were also produced with the assistance of other disciples of His Divine Grace?

c. Or, should we directly infer that the very same disciples (such as Giriraja Swami, Jayapataka Swami etc.) who "spaced-out" in a critical service such as drafting their spiritual master’s Final Will in his very presence, have shortly after his departure confidently assumed the role of the next acarya also as a result of being "spaced-out"?

d. Or, should it be taken as a claim by maharaja that although such "spaced-out" disciples surrounded Srila Prabhupada, he let things happen the way they were happening, being incapable of judging the consequences?

2B. Though His Holiness created a lot of room for such doubts by inappropriate usage of words, devotees nonetheless sought polite clarification from him:

Rajiva Locana Dasa: Yes. But maharaj, they knew that Will is meant for the future. Inspite of that they should have been careful. We see at another point Prabhupada changes one of the items of the Will. In the second line he does that. That means he was very much aware of what they were writing. When you know that pensions were given to his parents or wife, he says in the first one, that in the first Will "I have written its not very clear". Then he gets it written once again. That means that Prabhupada was definitely aware. It’s (the will is) not "just authorized" by Prabhupada. It’s a confirmation.

Bhakta Mitesh: He must have read the Will many times.

Jayapataka Swami: I just read it out to him once and he said "okay" and signed it. You know he was…

Rajiva Locana Dasa: But even if he’s heard it once, and has accepted it, he’s an acharya, and he must be hearing it properly otherwise how would he remember to change something later on? So his intelligence was so sharp as an acharya, as a Mahabagavatha (unclear)……we are under mining Prabhupada.

It is a well documented and acknowledged fact that Srila Prabhupada was extremely meticulous and scrutinisingly perfect in all his devotional activities and this fact is amply demonstrated in all his dealings all through the years. As anyone can clearly see from the above piece of the conversation, even if his disciples were actually "spaced-out" as stated by His Holiness, Srila Prabhupada would never make the mistake of approving something he was not sure of, especially an item as critical as his Final Will and for this simple reason alone, the words "my initiated disciple" may please be taken AS THEY ARE.

2C. Next, Maharaja strongly suggested, using the example of a witness in a courtroom, that since he was personally present while the Will was drafted, his interpretation of the Will’s words may be accepted by us, instead of taking Srila Prabhupada’s words directly.

Vedanta Chaitanya Dasa: Maharaj, do you mean to say that everything Prabhupada said or spoke about is to be understood only through the people who were around him? It amounts to saying that we have to first understand the mood of the devotees who "understood" Prabhupada rather than Prabhupada himself and his speaking so directly present in his books. Speaking so nicely in his instructions. It looks like……

Jayapataka Swami: You have to take both the things together. If you don’t take both the things together, then just the books, you won’t get the same idea as all the impression as the people who were with him. There are so many quotations where Prabhupada said that why do we have university. We don’t only read the books. We also need a teacher. This is why the system of Guru parampara is there because you need a teacher. To learn clearly the science, get the order and go on. Whether you are Siksha Guru or Diksha Guru. But that parampara system should be there. And that system, that is what why we accept Giriraj Maharaj’s point or why we accept the point of the people who were there because that’s the system. Even in a court of law who is the eye witness, you should accept what they say.

Kunjavihari Dasa: I would like to make 4 points. First thing - you were saying why we are complicating ‘my initiated disciples’. There is nothing complicated. Directly we understand my initiated disciples’ as Prabhupada’s disciples. There is no complication as far as the understanding is concerned. The second one is - we can either ask Giriraj Maharaj or take your version of what you have understood. But Prabhupada never says in his Will that an arbitrator is required to understand Prabhupada. He never mentions that "you go to such and such maharaj or such and such sanyasi to understand my Will. Otherwise you will not be able to understand." The third one is - you were saying we were not agreeing to that May 28^th conversation - pertaining to that. But, we are agreeing to that. In his presence you cannot become Diksha Guru. But that does not mean that as soon as he leaves the planet — in his physical absence, you can become a Diksha Guru. Nowhere Prabhuapda says that.

Jayapataka Swami: Nowhere he said that. No where he said that in the absence of a guru, the disciple has the right to initiate.

Chanchalapati Dasa: In the statement of formality, the etiquette, which he mentioned, Acharyapad, does not imply after the disappearance of the guru, the disciple can automatically become a guru.

Jayapataka Swami: He needs an order.

Our dearest Jayapataka maharaja, is this an attempt to introduce a new idea in this movement that we cannot understand Srila Prabhupada’s books, without approaching you or anyone else? Wherefrom has this concoction taken birth? To the best of our knowledge, Srila Prabhupada never declared this anywhere.

a. How do you account for the fact that thousands of devotees (including probably your good self) have received / are receiving incomparable spiritual inspiration from the books given by Srila Prabhupada

b. In what other way, do you interpret Srila Prabhupada’s own statement issued to a press reporter (who had inquired about the future of the movement after Srila Prabhupada’s departure) "I will never die… I shall live from my books and you will utilize." than in the direct sense in which it exists. Pray, enlighten the whole world and us with your realizations.

c. Should we understand that ever since Srila Prabhupada terminated his physically manifest pastimes amongst us, we can assume "he’s dead and gone" and start preaching deviant philosophies, completely against well-established ISKCON siddhanta?

2D. Maharaja next went on to defend his explanation that Srila Prabhupada never noticed "My initiated disciple" by saying that a pure devotee may not really be free from defects.

Devotee: A pure devotee is run by Krishna. His senses are directed by Krishna

Jayapataka Swami: You are trying to make that pure devotee is Krishna

Devotee: We are not saying that. He is directed by Krishna. Is free from all defects. Yes.

Jayapataka Swami: How does it say that free from all defects?

Devotee: Pure devotees are free…

Jayapataka Swami: What it means is that everything he is doing for the pleasure of Krishna. There is also a quote when we see…that sometimes guru is falling asleep or when he is giving a class he misses a Sanskrit verse or something. Or we hear a Guru is free from all defects…you don’t understand. That’s not what it means. It’s not that he is free from all defects. The point is that everything the he’s doing is for the service of Krishna. That is what it means pure devotee. Everything he’s doing is for Krishna.

Devotee: Prabhupada was a mahabhagavatha. We all know that he was empowered by the Lord only for this mission and such a type of devotee - his words are dictated by the Lord.

Devotee: In Bhagavad Gita, 1^st Chapter where the word Hrishikesha is used, in connection with that Prabhupada very clearly mentions that for a pure devotee, the Lord directly controls and directs the senses. Very clearly he mentions that. For a non-devotee according to their surrender He might direct them. Just like He’s giving that example — just like Arjuna was directly…his senses were directly controlled by the Lord. So he may have made mistakes, but that was also according to the instructions of the Lord.

Here is an example of how sometimes, one is dragged into making irrelevant statements, sometimes offensive to one’s own guru, just to defend one’s own position or views. Although being in a senior and very responsible position as a GBC member, His Holiness is here trying to establish that one is wrong if one thinks that Srila Prabhupada (though he does not dispute the understanding that Srila Prabhupada was a pure devotee, mahabhagavatha etc.) was free from defects because he could make mistakes such as falling asleep in a class (has anyone seen this anytime, we only know that Srila Prabhupada was always very alert?) or missing Sanskrit verses. And this is the explanation His Holiness has, just to prove his point that Srila Prabhupada did not notice the "my" in the phrase "my initiated disciple" in his Final Will.

Maharaja, have you come to accept atleast now (after hearing the most appropriate reasons provided by the devotees assembled), the fact that a pure devotee such as Srila Prabhupada is indeed free from all defects? Please do not hesitate to take our help — we remain faithfully at your service.

2E7. And Next, Maharaja Contradicts Himself !!! After maharaja had exhausted several possible explanations of the "my initiated disciple" phrase to justify his position as a regular diksha guru, he made yet another try, this time however, directly contradicting what he had himself stated some time earlier in the same meeting. Please read on:

Chanchalapati Dasa: … and all Prabhupada’s disciples go away, then anyone can take over the property.

(Here Chanchalapati Dasa is trying to question as to what would happen to the trusteeship of the movement’s properties after all the "Prabhupada disciples" pass away.)

Jayapataka Swami: "My initiated disciples" you could also interpret to mean that by "siksha disciple who is initiated by me".

Devotees: …(uproar) (unclear) (devotees disapprove maharaja’s sudden speculation)

Jayapataka Swami: By your association I’m getting crazy.

Dear maharaja, long before you realized that you were going crazy did you ever consider the possibility that we the devotees of ISKCON Bangalore, were also being driven crazy by your fast changing interpretations on the same matter?

a. How is it that just a few minutes earlier in the meeting you had very confidently explained that the word "my" was never meant to be a part of the currently existing "my initiated disciple" and all of a sudden, out of the blue, you decided that "my" is very much part of the same phrase, and it actually refers to Srila Prabhupada’s siksha disciples? Please be merciful & share with us the secret behind this realization that you just had.

Maybe, Maharaja, You should first decide whether the word "my" is an inadvertent, accidental inclusion or is it actually refer to a siksha disciple?

b. Or, maharaja, do you actually feel that our guru maharaja’s Final Will is a document on which you can freely exercise your speculations and draw interpretations to suit your whims according to time, place and circumstance and mislead other innocent devotees? Why not simply accept it As It Is? What is the real difficulty?

c. Or, maharaja, don’t you really appreciate how it is imperative to find a long awaited fool-proof solution to ISKCON’s much battered Guru & Initiation system, certainly due to which millions of dollars, thousands of devotees, all good name and position has been snatched away from this wonderful movement given to us by Srila Prabhupada?

O! our good friend Jayapataka Maharaja, do you possess any perception of how valuable our time in this human form of life is, certainly not meant to be wasted in pointless & frivolous discussions in boardrooms at the cost of our devotional service to Sri Sri Radha and Krishnachandra? We certainly do.

Please do let us know if you opine to differ. Thank you very much.

In conclusion of this part of our analysis, let us all together take shelter of - that one wonderful personality who instructed us in practical matters of spiritual science even up to his last breath, in this episode of his manifest pastimes and is still instructing us through his glorious instructions - His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. And as we sign out, let’s turn back the clock and take a quick peep at a touching scene that took place a fair while ago.

Venue: Srila Prabhupada’s house, Sri Krishna Balarama Mandir, Vrindavana

Date: 3^rd November 1977 (11 days before Srila Prabhupada departed)

Krsna dasa Babaji: It is wonderful that he is speaking so nicely, with full sense.
Bhakti-caru: He's saying that it's wonderful that you are in full consciousness.

Prabhupada: He doesn't expect this consciousness in this condition. Therefore he is astonished. Actually, physically--finished, everything. So wherefrom the voice coming and wherefrom intelligence coming? That he is astonished…