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WORLD May 3, 1999 VNN3779 See Related VNN Stories Change Prabhupada's Sexist Books BY JIVAN MUKTA DASA USA, May 3 (VNN) — Selected Texs From The VAST (Vaisnava Advanced studies) COM Conference Dear respected GBC members, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. The following are VAST texts that were forwarded to me by an individual who was understandably disturbed by their content. The disturbing subject matter arose from a discussion regarding the context, legitimacy and accuracy of Prabhupada's "sexist" statements. The authors of these texts, ISKCON devotees--most of them scholars-- recommend that we revise, edit, annotate and/or change the "sexist" statements in Prabhupada's books. They claim that the obvious "sexism" inherent in Prabhupada's purports, lectures and conversations, is unsubstantiated by reality, contrary to bona fide sastra, a product of Prabhupada's cultural conditioning and indicative of an improper understanding and use of scripture. Their concern is that it is extremely damaging to the reputation of Prabhupada's movement, his devotees and himself. In addition, these scholars cite that this sexism is one of the most obvious reasons ISKCON has been unable to attract intelligent men and women. One VAST contributor goes so far as to suggest that the intelligence level of most ISKCON women who are not repulsed by this "sexism" is lower that of their non-devotee counterparts. Particularly offensive to these Vaisnavas is the recurring statement regarding women's intelligence vis-a-vis men's. Some of VASTS's members have expressed their revulsion toward such statements made by Srila Prabhupada by admitting that they cringe at even the thought of distributing Prabhupada's books within which these statements are found. These liberal intellectual members of ISKCON, seeking to introduce egalitarian feminist concepts into Prabhupada's movement, find his "blatantly sexist" statements to be a formidable obstacle to their preaching efforts. These scholars agreed that "we have to do something" about the sexism in the Bhaktivedanta purports. Though I am certain that not all of the VAST members supported this nonsense, I am unaware of any member(s) that challenged these offensive statements. Are these senior devotees not culpable for not defending Srila Prabhupada and his teachings? Did any of them speak out against such blasphemy? I submit these texts to the members of the GBC for their perusal in order to demonstrate the inevitable result of propagating false standards of equality in an attempt to appease misguided members of our Movement. The feminist agenda and ideology is so diametrically opposed to Prabhupada's direct statements, teachings and ISKCON's cultural mandate, that the only way to fully rectify this "problem", as they have themselves accurately concluded, is to change his books. As shocking as this may sound to many of us, it is, in fact, the only logical conclusion for those who pursue and propagate what Prabhupada calls a "puffed up concept of womanly life". Why? Because feminist ideology can never be supported on the basis of current editions of Prabhupada's books. ISKCON requires ideal examples from both its men and women. To this end, proper cultural training is required, not a regression to the miasma of Western cultural ideologies. This submission is intended to alert those among you who may have failed to realize the malevolent result of deviating from the sastric social morality propagated by Srila Prabhupada and all predecessor acaryas. For the sake of our sons and daughters I appeal to you, the members of the GBC, to reflect upon these matters with the greatest sobriety. Your servant, Jivan Mukta Dasa SUMMARY OF TEXTS (complete texts follow this summary) TEXT #1: Madhusudani Radha devi dasi (JPS) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 12:22 -0700 From: "COM: Madhusudani Radha JPS" This is obviously a very sensitive area, so I will try to be careful as I further clarify my thoughts. Basically, it seems like we have three options in terms of how to interpret Srila Prabhupada's statements about women's intelligence: 1. Prabhupada meant spiritual intelligence I don't think any of us on this conference are going to entertain this possibility seriously, as spiritually, we are all equal, i.e. we are neither men nor women. 2. Prabhupada meant material intelligence If this is the case, it could be something he picked up from his college professors or from the culture where he grew upÉ 3. Prabhupada meant some other kind of intelligence If Prabhupada was not referring to spiritual intelligence, or to what we typically think of as material intelligence (IQ), then I can not comment on whether he was right or wrong. However, if you really think this is the case, I have one suggestion: Change the books. The way they are currently written will be interpreted by the majority of people to mean option #2 above. If this is not what we want them to say, we need to indicate that very clearly. Otherwise we will lose many, many souls who will have been unable to see beyond that miscommunication. Ys, Madhusudani TEXT #2: Madhusudani Radha devi dasi (JPS) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 98 08:36 -0700 From: "COM: Madhusudani Radha JPS" To: "COM: VAST (Vaishnava Advanced Studies)" Subject: Women speaking for themselves Personally, I do object to both restrictions. 1. Restricting women's service opportunities clearly violates Srila Prabhupada's desires. 2. I also object to the characterization of women as less materially intelligent, based both on psychology research and on personal experience. I know that, materially speaking, I am more intelligent than many men in our society. Ys, Madhusudani TEXT #3: Prithu das (ACBSP) From: Prithu (das) ACBSP Date: 19-May-98 12:26 -0700 To: Hariballabha (dd) HKS (Berlin - D) [4611] (received: 19-May-98 21:50 +0100) Cc: Arjuna (das) HKS (Munich - D) [5888] (received: 20-May-98 07:42 +0200), Jyotirmayi dd VAST (Vaishnava Advanced Studies) [2450] For: IWC (Internat. Women's Conference) Subject: re - I did not say that ------------------------------------------------------------ What I said is clear if you read my letter aboveÉ As far as Srila Prabhupada's statements in Folio anyway, is it by now not more honest for you to say that you want to distance yourself from what SP says rather than taking it out on me? It is only the next step. Of course I am telling you it's a Pandora's box. Because what is next and where where do you want to end? I certainly could never do so. For me what Srila Prabhupada says is my life and soul and all I have. Hence I definitely would say anything SP said and without prejudice, because I think it's an offence to the spiritual master to keep an opinion over and above one's spiritual masters opinion. And I think it's amazing that Mother Madhusudani Radhe suggests to me, quote: "If you want to distance yourself from what Amavasya quoted you as saying, or from Prabhupada's statements about the reasons for the 95-100 female to male ratio in India, I would encourage you to do so on both VAST and IWC." I have done as far as Amavasya dd's presentation. As far as distancing myself from what Srila Prabhupada says, that I cannot do. Sorry, there is a point when I just must bail out. And for me its clear we are getting here into a very dangerous position. Yspda TEXT #4: Bankabihari devi dasi (HDG) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 98 19:13 -0800 From: "COM: Bankabihari HDG" Reply-To: Bankabihari.HDG@com.bbt.se, VAST@com.bbt.se To: "COM: VAST (Vaishnava Advanced Studies)" Satyaraja Prabhu: >Things seem to go downhill for women around the time of Manu (when was >this É.I gather that at a particular point in time and space *dharma* -- in the sense of world-view and life-style codes, both for humanity at large and for specific classes of people -- was an issue. If dharma is not an issue, then there is no need for dharma-sastraÉ If that is shown to be the case, then it would be interesting to find out, as much as possible, what the possition of women was in sastras that are older than the dharma-sastrasÉ We would have to try to determine specifically what society, and social issues, the Manu-smrti was responding to. I think several devotees suggested that these inquiries may lead to editorial efforts -- to publish Prabhupada's books with a subcommentary,,, y.s. bdd TEXT #5: Advaita dasa (HDG) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 07:24 -0500 From: "Edwin B." <--> Amoghaji, In one sense this issue is going round and round and perhaps not going anywhere to the satisfaction of everyone. Perhaps that is good; I hope this women's issue is becoming the next crisis in ISKCON, of the magnitude of the guru crisis of the 80's. We men, of course, can get sick of this conversation, or fudge things over, and walk away back to our privileged positions as men (leaving the women get stuck with their lot). I guess the problem I have in understanding passages like the one you quoted (apart from the fact that these are the very passages that make me cringe about giving Prabhupada's books to the types of people with whom I am interacting), is that they just plain don't correspond to any kind of reality that I have experienced either in ISKCON or out. YS APD TEXT #6: Advaita dasa (HDG) From: Edwin B. <--> Subject: Re: Feminism, etc Dear Prabhus, Even if one were to argue that the female material form is more attractive (hence like fire), one is not then entitled to infer that the psychological state of women is somehow more lusty. At least in the absence of textual evidence. But some of us have agreed that this statement refers to sexual stamina, not inherent lustiness as ISKCON has historically interpreted it. So perhaps we need to broadcast this position within our respective spheres of influence in an endeavour to change the aspects of our KC culture that are blatantly sexist. But more damaging, I think, has been the idea that women are less intelligent. (Does anyone have any explicit textual sources that state this )? I think we also need to examine what Prabhupada meant by this. Prabhupada's sources are either scriptural, or from some material source. If there are explicit scriptural verses that Prabhupada quotes, we need to look at the context of the verses and also at the exact ,Sanskrit word used in the primary source which Prabhupada (or his editors) translated as 'less intelligent'. Regarding material sources, these need to be examined to see if they are just plain wrong We need to discuss what Prabhupada was learning as a young man in, say, Scottish Churches College at the beginning of this century If Prabhupada picked up information from such sources which he later used in preaching, then we have to be prepared to correct it and contextualize it on behalf of our spiritual master YS APD TEXT #7: Advaita dasa (HDG) From: Edwin B. (Advaita) Subject: Re: Feminism, etc [Text 1054625 from COM] What are you going to tell your students when they read these things in Prabhupada's books? I had all my students read one of Prabhupada's little books and they hated the sexist statements (and sexist atmosphere in the temple) while appreciating much else TEXT #8: Amoghalila dasa Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:42:29 -0800 From: "Allan M. Keislar" Advaita Prabhu, I remember the same thing happening distributing Bhagavad-gitas on the street a year or two ago. After a brief discussion which was very enlivening to both of us, a brilliant young woman took a random look at the book (I can't remember the reference now, but I recall that it was something about women being of lower class or intelligence) and, with a not unpleasant but rather sad and also condescending laugh, handed the book back to me and quickly walked off as I tried helplessly to get her to reconsider. What are we going to do? I don't know, but I agree with you that we have to do something, and I think you are on the right track. Amoghalila das TEXT #9: Advaita dasa (HDG) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 06:36 -0500 From: Edwin B. <--> I propose that this conversation can go no further until we discuss FACTS. I propose we consider as facts two types of pramanas: Sabda--explicit shastric statements regarding women's intelligence vis-a-vis men's; and pratyaksha--comprehensive scientific studies accepted by most members in the scientific community (which are deemed acceptable by a majority of reasonable feminist intellectuals). YS APD COMPLETE TEXTS TEXT #1: Madhusudani Radha devi dasi (JPS) [Madhusuadani Radha devi dasi founded, financially supports and is an editor for CHAKRA. She is a very outspoken proponent of feminism and is apparently supported in her efforts by her initiating guru, Jayapataka Swami. In a future posting, we will also see how she is unable to totally absolve Srila Prabhupada from his alleged criminal responsibility with respect to the ISKCON gurukula child abuse.] Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 12:22 -0700 From: "COM: Madhusudani Radha JPS" To: "COM: VAST (Vaishnava Advanced Studies)" Subject: Women and intelligence [Text 1067751 from COM] This is obviously a very sensitive area, so I will try to be careful as I further clarify my thoughts. Basically, it seems like we have three options in terms of how to interpret Srila Prabhupada's statements about women's intelligence: 1. Prabhupada meant spiritual intelligence I don't think any of us on this conference are going to entertain this possibility seriously, as spiritually, we are all equal, i.e. we are neither men nor women. 2. Prabhupada meant material intelligence If this is the case, it could be something he picked up from his college professors or from the culture where he grew up. We know from other writings that Prabhupada was more flexible on these topics and did not present himself as an expert at all times. He even suggested to disciples that they get advice elsewhere (as in when disciples asked him for health advice and he told them not to ask him but to consult a doctor). Since you gave some latitude in your text, Maharaja, regarding people who have professional competency, I'm going to take you up on this. Measurement of material intelligence is the subject matter of clinical and educational psychologists. We spend many years in graduate school learning about different tests, the administration, cultural factors, scoring, interpretation and various controversies. I have probably administered, scored and interpreted at least a hundred intelligence tests during graduate school and following receipt of my PhD in clinical psychology, so this is not just based on my personal views. The main problem everyone runs into when discussing population differences in intelligence is that there may be differences in means between groups, but the distributions overlap to such a great extent that any such differences are often meaningless. The issue of differences has, as you probably already know, been a very hot topic in the area of race and ethnic differences. Many biological, genetic and cultural differences have been provided to explain why Asians typically score higher than Whites, who in turn score higher than Latinos and African-Americans. Have the negative statements in the SB about African Americans ever come up in your academic environments? When it comes to gender differences on IQ tests, they are really minute and can not be used to demonstrate the superiority of either gender. We can not even use the test to show that the most intelligent man has a higher IQ than the most intelligent woman. In fact, the person who has the highest recorded score in the world is currently a woman. We can of course debate forever what "real" intelligence is, its components, and the relatively recent concept of emotional intelligence, but I would caution against such a direction. What seems to have started this discussion appears to be the fact that it says that women are less intelligent in Prabhupada's books. Most people who react unfavorably to these statements are going to interpret this as meaning that he is saying that women have a lower IQ. That's why the turn away. This brings us to the third option: 3. Prabhupada meant some other kind of intelligence If Prabhupada was not referring to spiritual intelligence, or to what we typically think of as material intelligence (IQ), then I can not comment on whether he was right or wrong. However, if you really think this is the case, I have one suggestion: Change the books. The way they are currently written will be interpreted by the majority of people to mean option #2 above. If this is not what we want them to say, we need to indicate that very clearly. Otherwise we will lose many, many souls who will have been unable to see beyond that miscommunication. Ys, Madhusudani [In this text, Madhusudani Radha devi dasi summarizes her appeal for the book changes in this way: Intelligence could be of three kinds: 1. spiritual intelligence 2. material intelligence 3. some other type of intelligence If in saying that women were less intelligent, Prabhupada was not referring to material or spiritual intelligence, i.e. if he was referring to "some other type of intelligence" then she cannot say whether he was right or wrong until the "scholars" define what that other type of intelligence actually is. If the scholars actually deem that Prabhupada was referring to some other type of intelligence i.e. he was not referring to material or spiritual intelligence, then she recommends that we CHANGE THE BOOKS. Why? Because as they stand, the statements are understood by the majority of people to mean that women are "materially" less intelligent. This "miscommunication" of Prabhupada's intention is causing ISKCON to lose many souls who would have otherwise joined.] TEXT #2: Madhusudani Radha devi dasi (JPS) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 98 08:36 -0700 From: "COM: Madhusudani Radha JPS" To: "COM: VAST (Vaishnava Advanced Studies)" Subject: Women speaking for themselves Personally, I do object to both restrictions. 3. Restricting women's service opportunities clearly violates Srila Prabhupada's desires. 4. I also object to the characterization of women as less materially intelligent, based both on psychology research and on personal experience. I know that, materially speaking, I am more intelligent than many men in our society. Ys, Madhusudani [In the previous text Madhusudani Radha devi dasi rejected the definition of "less intelligence" as spiritual intelligence or material intelligence. She now reinforces her point by stating that not only would defining "less-intelligent" as material intelligence contradict psychological research, but it would contradict her own personal experience which is that she is "more intelligent than many men in our society." As such it is her conclusion that Prabhupada meant some other type of intelligence and hence his books should be changed to reflect that other intelligence.] TEXT #3: Prithu dasa (ACBSP) [A member of the GBC and an ISKCON initiating guru. Hariballabha devi dasi is a member of the ISKCON Women's Ministry and the Mataji Council in Germany.] From: Prithu (das) ACBSP Date: 19-May-98 12:26 -0700 To: Hariballabha (dd) HKS (Berlin - D) [4611] (received: 19-May-98 21:50 +0100) Cc: Arjuna (das) HKS (Munich - D) [5888] (received: 20-May-98 07:42 +0200), Jyotirmayi dd VAST (Vaishnava Advanced Studies) [2450] For: IWC (Internat. Women's Conference) Subject: re - I did not say that ------------------------------------------------------------ What I said is clear if you read my letter above. Which does not conflict with what Arjuna thinks and says he heard. Has nothing to do with couples. The onus is always on the men, women are innocent. But if men are weak, Srila Prabhupada did say female birth is favored. He calls it a defect in Dananjaya's letter. [The entire controversy here arose from Prithu dasa quoting statements wherein Prabhupada expressed concern and spoke disparagingly about female births. The quotes form part of this text.] As far as Srila Prabhupada's statements in Folio anyway, is it by now not more honest for you to say that you want to distance yourself from what SP says rather than taking it out on me? It is only the next step. [This is addressed to Hariballabha devi dasi (HKS) who wanted him to retract his statements. Prithu das advises her to be truthful and instead of venting her wrath upon him -- Prabhupada's messenger -- she should simply admit her inability to accept Srila Prabhupada's authority on these matters.] Of course I am telling you it's a Pandora's box. Because what is next and where do you want to end? I certainly could never do so. For me what Srila Prabhupada says is my life and soul and all I have. [Prithu dasa asks, "what is next"? We will see that the objective is to purge Prabhupada's teaching of these sexist comments.] Hence I definitely would say anything SP said and without prejudice, because I think it's an offence to the spiritual master to keep an opinion over and above one's spiritual masters opinion. And I think it's amazing that Mother Madhusudani Radhe suggests to me, quote: "If you want to distance yourself from what Amavasya quoted you as saying, or from Prabhupada's statements about the reasons for the 95-100 female to male ratio in India, I would encourage you to do so on both VAST and IWC." [Herein Madhusudani Radha devi dasi encourages Prithu dasa to publicly distance himself from the teachings of his spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada.] I have done as far as Amavasya dd's presentation. As far as distancing myself from what Srila Prabhupada says, that I cannot do. Sorry, there is a point when I just must bail out. And for me its clear we are getting here into a very dangerous position. Yspda ---------------------------------------------------------- Here are Prabhupada's quotes from Folio. Please excuse the length: Prabhupada: And the more the man will become attached to woman, the woman population will increase. It is psychological. The whole world is increasing woman population. So therefore there is desire, especially in (indistinct). Devotee: How is that? Prabhupada: The same principle-if milk is available in the market, what is the use of keeping a cow? Devotee: How does that result in more women? Prabhupada: When you have more sex, then you have no power to beget a male child. When the man is less powerful, a girl is born. When the man is powerful, a boy is born. That is Vedic system. In our country, in (indistinct), there are fewer woman because there the men are very stout and strong. When there is discharge, if the man's discharge is larger, then there is a male child; if the woman's discharge is larger, then there is a female child. So when women will be very easily available, the men will be weak. So what will he beget? He will beget female child, because he has lost his power. Sometimes he becomes impotent. So many desertions. If you don't restrict sex life, there will be so many desertions. And that is happening-impotency, no marriage, woman population more. But they did not know how things are happening, how human psychology can be controlled. The perfect system is the Vedic system. (Discussion with Syamasundara on Sigismund Freud) Radhavallabha: Srila Prabhupada, in one BTG article, you listed... Prabhupada: Eh? Radhavallabha: In one BTG article, you described increase in women population as a natural disaster. Prabhupada: Yes. Radhavallabha: So when one woman read this article, she became very angry. She came back and was very angry. Prabhupada: She may be angry. She is woman and man. Actually this is physiological. If a man is too much addicted to sex life, he'll become impotent, and if he begets child, it will be a girl. With no potency to give birth to a male child.... That requires potency. Hamsaduta: When we were going around in London making life members, I noticed that in so many families, all the children are girls. Prabhupada: Yes. The whole world is full of girls, girl children. Why? There is no potency. Potency finished. Or impotent. And if you keep one boy brahmacari, no sex life, and get him married, the first child must be a boy, must be, without any doubt. Lokanatha: That means, then, woman is more potent than... Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Yes. The Ayur-vedic formula is that when there is discharge, woman's discharge, more, means girl, and man's discharge, more, means boy. This is physiological. Ramesvara: The women argue that they are stronger than the men. Prabhupada: Yes. You are stronger than the man, that when there is fight, the man goes; you do not go. You are so strong. You are simply ravished in the absence of your husband. That's all. (Morning walk - March 19/76 Mayapur) N.B. I am also in receipt of your letters dated October 20 & 21, 1975. I note that your wife and Visalaini both gave birth to baby girls. That is the defect. I want male children but you have no stamina for it. I expected from Visalaini by her belly that it would be a boy. Anyway, never mind. The name Brijlata is nice. Why do the majority of my married disciples give birth to girls? (Letter to: Dhananjaya: Bombay 9 November, 1975) TEXT #4: Bankabihari devi dasi (HDG) [Bankabihari devi dasi is a PHd sanskrit candidate at Berkeley. Satyaraja dasa is a disciple of Srila Prabhupada and the author of various books on Vaisnavism.] Date: Sun, 1 Feb 98 19:13 -0800 From: "COM: Bankabihari HDG" Reply-To: Bankabihari.HDG@com.bbt.se, VAST@com.bbt.se To: "COM: VAST (Vaishnava Advanced Studies)" Satyaraja Prabhu: >Things seem to go downhill for women around the time of Manu (when was >this?), or, according to some, around the time of the Muslim influence. After >this, for reasons we need to explore, texts emphasizing the ritual impurity of >women came to the fore, and marriage (vivaaha), service to the husband >(patisevaa), and housework (grhaartha) became the almost exclusive services that women could perform. Women were depicted as morally weak and, in some ways, >the greatest detriment to man. Early texts that emphasize their physical and >mental frailties were quoted (paraphrased?) and the fact that they should never >be independent, both for their own good and for that of their men--indeed, for >society as a whole-- became the thing most known about women. [Satyaraja dasa explains how abuse against women started during the time of Manu (I really can't understand when that would be since Manu was the first created human being). According to Satyaraja dasa, such ritualistic abuse is characterized by an emphasis that a woman's duty is to serve her husband and manage the household.] One thing I'd like to add re. the historical inquiry. From the mere existence of *dharma-sastras* (of which the Manu-smrti is one example) I gather that at a particular point in time and space *dharma* -- in the sense of world-view and life-style codes, both for humanity at large and for specific classes of people -- was an issue. If dharma is not an issue, then there is no need for dharma-sastra. Now, if the dharma sastras are not the oldest kind of Skt. literature there is, there must have been a time when everybody knew what their position in society was and how to behave properly according to a culture that was not being contested or challenged in any way. [Bankabihari devi dasi is now seeking to understand the social mores of a "pre-dharma" society (whatever that may be) in order to comprehensively evaluate the plight of women during the "dharma" periods of human history.] If that is shown to be the case, then it would be interesting to find out, as much as possible, what the possition of women was in sastras that are older than the dharma-sastras. Which leads us to the issue of relative chronology. I don't know whether anyone already has a relative chronology chart of all the Skt. texts that Prabhupada quoted or at least respected. Besides, to correlate a text and its specific society/culture/power structure we will need to have some idea of the text's absolute chronology as well. We would have to try to determine specifically what society, and social issues, the Manu-smrti was responding to. [Bankabihari devi dasi's point seems to be that if the social issue to which Manu samhita was responding was identified, then the subjugation of women inherent in Manu's moral codes could be eliminated, especially in a transcendental society like ISKCON.] I think several devotees suggested that these inquiries may lead to editorial efforts -- to publish Prabhupada's books with a subcommentary or other books inspired in Prabhupada's books -- as well as to varnasrama planning and implementation. y.s. bdd [Bankabihari devi dasi endorses editing Prabhupada's books.] TEXT #5: Advaita dasa (HDG) [Edwin B.] Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 07:24 -0500 From: "Edwin B." <--> To: keislar@uclink2.berkeley.edu To: "COM: VAST (Vaishnava Advanced Studies)" Subject: Women and bodily identification. Amoghaji, In one sense this issue is going round and round and perhaps not going anywhere to the satisfaction of everyone. Perhaps that is good; I hope this women's issue is becoming the next crisis in ISKCON, of the magnitude of the guru crisis of the 80's. We men, of course, can get sick of this conversation, or fudge things over, and walk away back to our privileged positions as men (leaving the women get stuck with their lot). I guess the problem I have in understanding passages like the one you quoted (apart from the fact that these are the very passages that make me cringe about giving Prabhupada's books to the types of people with whom I am interacting), is that they just plain don't correspond to any kind of reality that I have experienced either in ISKCON or out. YS APD [Advaita dasa feels so embarrassed about Prabhupada's statements that he "cringes" at the thought of giving someone His Divine Grace's books.] TEXT #6: Advaita dasa (HDG) From: Edwin B. <--> Subject: Re: Feminism, etc Dear Prabhus, I agree with Amogha that it would be helpful to find accurate references to this ninefold lustiness. And not just helpful, but imperative since it seems that our misappropriations of such statements has created a culture wherein our women have been falsely branded and stereotyped. [Advaita dasa feels it an injustice that women have been branded and stereotyped by Prabhupada and sastra as being nine times lustier than men. He appeals for references that contradict or neutralize this sexist statement.] Men as butter and women as fire, it seems to me, again suggests that men are the weaker element, ie. more lusty and prone to lose their composure in the association of the opposite sex. Even if one were to argue that the female material form is more attractive (hence like fire), one is not then entitled to infer that the psychological state of women is somehow more lusty. At least in the absence of textual evidence. But some of us have agreed that this statement refers to sexual stamina, not inherent lustiness as ISKCON has historically interpreted it. So perhaps we need to broadcast this position within our respective spheres of influence in an endeavour to change the aspects of our KC culture that are blatantly sexist. But more damaging, I think, has been the idea that women are less intelligent. Does anyone have any explicit textual sources that state this (i.e. not from Prabhupada's purports, but from authorized Sanskrit scriptures)? [Advaita dasa seeks evidence regarding women's intelligence vis a vis men from an "authorized scriptural source"; not from Srila Prabhupada's books. Prabhupada's books, evidently, don't fall within the category of authorized scripture.] I think we also need to examine what Prabhupada meant by this. Prabhupada's sources are either scriptural, or from some material source. If there are explicit scriptural verses that Prabhupada quotes, we need to look at the context of the verses and also at the exact ,Sanskrit word used in the primary source which Prabhupada (or his editors) translated as 'less intelligent'. Regarding material sources, these need to be examined to see if they are just plain wrong. [Advaita dasa explains that this sexism is possibly due to Prabhupada neglecting to present or explain the proper context of sastric quotes, misdefining sanskrit words and his application of inaccurate information from material sources.] Let me give you an example from my own little research to illustrate this possibility. Prabhupada makes three sets of statements regarding the original Indo-Europeans: 1) they came from the Caspian sea, 2) they were the sons of Yayati, 3) they were the sons of Parasurama. Now at least one of these statements is WRONG (no's 2 and 3 might be able to coexist, but not with no. 1). Now, I notice that when Prabhupada uses no. 1, he does so in a context that stresses that Europeans are therefore descended from a common Vedic culture which is accordingly their original legacy and that is why they are taking it up. But it is me, the disciple, who has to infer this explanation. It is not explicit. From the point of view of historical accuracy Prabhupada's statement, at face value, is WRONG (because if they did come from the Caspian, a whole lot more is going to be wrong). So this is an illustration that Prabhupada sometimes uses material knowledge prevalent at the time just to make a point, but that this information needs to be adjusted, corrected, contextualized, etc because it may be wrong on a literal, scientific or historical level. So, back to the women-are-less-intelligent business. We need to discuss what Prabhupada was learning as a young man in, say, Scottish Churches College at the beginning of this century. [Advaita dasa now explains how Prabhupada's 'material" education and training could also be a probable cause of his sexist ideas.] A lot of erroneous sciences like phrenology were doing the rounds. Such sciences determined intelligence or culture by brain size, or the nasal index (Ripley). Women's skull size was considered evidence of their lesser intelligence. If Prabhupada picked up information from such sources which he later used in preaching, then we have to be prepared to correct it and contextualize it on behalf of our spiritual master. Dialectical Spiritualism might be another example of Prabhupada reacting to and using erroneous information in an endeavour to preach. Prabhupada himself was constantly adjusting, modifying and keeping up with the times. This, of course, is related to issues of what is essential and what is time and place. YS APD [Advaita dasa explains, in his own creative way, how editing the sexism and accordingly changing Srila Prabhupada's books is the duty and responsibility of a loyal disciple. What are the reasons? One reason is Prabhupada's imperfect understanding on these matters due to his slanted social conditioning and training.] TEXT #7: Advaita dasa (HDG) From: Edwin B. (Advaita) Subject: Re: Feminism, etc [Text 1054625 from COM] What are you going to tell your students when they read these things in Prabhupada's books? I had all my students read one of Prabhupada's little books and they hated the sexist statements (and sexist atmosphere in the temple) while appreciating much else. [Advaita dasa doesn't say that these statements are perceived as sexist but that they are sexist in the most pejorative sense of the word thus directly indicting the author of those books, Srila Prabhupada, and the entire disciplic succession, including Manu.] Hence this discussion is appropriate for this net (apart from the fact that such issues, in my opinion, have life-and-death consequences for KC in the West). TEXT #8: Amogha-lila dasa (HDG) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:42:29 -0800 From: "Allan M. Keislar" To: --, VAST@com.bbt.se Subject: Re: feminine intelligence [Advaita dasa seems to think that our entire movement needs to be overhauled so that everything that people like his students consider sexist, is expunged from Prabhupada's books.] >There...now there's an emotional and intuitive intellectual outpouring for >>you.....this thing has really got me going.... YS APD Prabhu, I remember the same thing happening distributing Bhagavad-gitas on the street a year or two ago. After a brief discussion which was very enlivening to both of us, a brilliant young woman took a random look at the book (I can't remember the reference now, but I recall that it was something about women being of lower class or intelligence) and, with a not unpleasant but rather sad and also condescending laugh, handed the book back to me and quickly walked off as I tried helplessly to get her to reconsider. What are we going to do? I don't know, but I agree with you that we have to do something, and I think you are on the right track. Amoghalila das [Amogha-lila dasa agrees with Advaita dasa that there are some very serious problems with Prabhupada's books all stemming from his sexist statements. He also feels that editing the books is "the right track" to follow.] TEXT #9: Advaita dasa (HDG) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 06:36 -0500 From: Edwin B. <--> To: "COM: VAST (Vaishnava Advanced Studies)" Subject: Re: FACTS and Womens intelligence. [Text 1066320 from COM) Dear Padmanabha Prabhu, PAMHO AGSP Thank you for your "feelings" about women's intelligence. While I personally don't have a problem with the possibility that women's emotions are less suppressed than men's (although whether this is inherent or socially constructed is an issue that needs to be discussed) I completely challenge the idea implicit in your posting that this is at the expense of the rational or intellectual faculty (whether we define these latter as per the OED, or in the finger-biting terms outlined by you below). I have already noted what I believe has been the catastrophic results of such discourse--women have been denied access to challenging rational functions such as class-giving and high-powered services in ISKCON causing many intelligent women to leave and creating a sexist devotee culture completely unacceptable to the kind of intelligent people Prabhupada wanted to attract tp KC. Remember--intelligent men are going to find this unacceptable, not just women. [It seems that Advaita dasa considers that current ISKCON members, who accept Prabhupada's "sexist" statements as indicative of fundamental social realities, are less intelligent and below the intellectual pedigree of those in his social circles.] I propose that this conversation can go no further until we discuss FACTS. I propose we consider as facts two types of pramanas: Sabda--explicit shastric statements regarding women's intelligence vis-a-vis men's; and pratyaksha--comprehensive scientific studies accepted by most members in the scientific community (which are deemed acceptable by a majority of reasonable feminist intellectuals). YS APD [Advaita dasa proposes that Prabhupada's sexist statements be verified by sastra and that they be further supported by comprehensive scientific studies accepted not only by members of the scientific community but more importantly, "by a majority of reasonable feminist intellectuals".] VAST MEMBERS These are the members on the conference who witnessed this exchange. Organizers: Bharata Srestha (das) HDG (IPSET, CA - USA) Brahmatirtha (das) ACBSP (Tallahassee, FL - USA) No of members: 70 VAST (Vaishnava Advanced Studies) has the following members: Acyuta (das) SDG (Calcutta - IN) Aisvarya (das) HDG (TSKP San Diego, CA - USA) Aja (das) ACBSP (Copenhagen - DK) (Bhaktin) Aleksandra Nijemcevic (Manor - UK) (Bhakta) Alexander Myagkov (St. Petersburg - R) Anila (das) GKG (TP Vladimir - R) Babhru (das) ACBSP (San Diego - USA) Bankabihari (dd) HDG (Berkeley - USA) Bharata Srestha (das) HDG (IPSET, CA - USA) Bhava-sindhu (das) HDG Bira Krsna (das) BCS (Zurich - CH) Brahmatirtha (das) ACBSP (Tallahassee, FL - USA) Braja Bihari (das) BJD (Vrindavana - IN) Brajajana (das) SDG (Mayapur - IN) Danavir das Goswami (USA) Darubrahman (das) HDG (Tallahassee, FL - USA) Devamrita Swami (Auckland - NZ) Dhanurdhara (das) KKD (Berkeley, CA - USA) Drutakarma (das) ACBSP (Los Angeles - USA) Dvaraka (das) HKS (Buenos Aires - ARG) (Bhakta) Fabio Pianigiani (Italy) Guna Avatar (das) ACBSP (Jerusalem - Israel) Hanumatpresaka Swami (Anjana Suta Academy) Hari (dd) HDG (Oxford Project) Haridas (das) HDG (Tallahassee, FL - USA) Hridayananda Dasa Goswami Janaki Ram (das) BVMS (San Jose, CA - USA) Jay Mayapur (das) HDG (Chicago - USA) Jaya Hari (dd) HDG (USA) Jayasacisuta (das) DDG (Denver, CO - USA) (Bhakta) John Dunlop (Melbourne - AU) Kamalasundari (dd) HKS (Karlstad - S) Kaustubha (das) TKG (Traveling Sankirtan - USA) Keshava (dd) SDG (IRL) Krsna Avatara (das) HDG (Alachua, FL - USA) Krsna Ksetra (das) ACBSP (USA) Krsna-krpa (das) SDG (BI) (Alachua, FL - USA) Krsnadasa Kaviraja (das) PDA (Eugene, OR - USA) Krsnanuvada (das) HDG (Gdansk - PL) Kusha (dd) ACBSP (Philadelphia, PA - USA) (Bhakta) Lyall Ward (Bhaktivedanta Library Services) Madhurya-kadambini (dd) KKD (Berkeley - USA) Mahakirti (das) BVS (Prague - CZ) Mukunda (das) SDHS (Ljubljana - SLO) Pandava Sakha (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN) Pracarananda (das) SS (Bialystok - PL) Pralambaha (das) HDG (Berkeley, CA - USA) Prithu (das) ACBSP Priyavrata (das) HKS (Mayapur Project, Exhibitions) Purujit (das) HKS (Zagreb - HR) Rabindranatha (das) ACBSP (Los Angeles, CA - USA) Radhe Shyam (dd) BJD (Melbourne - AU) Rajahamsa (das) HDG (IN) Rasika-sekhara (das) IDS (Oxford Project - GB) (Bhakta) Reuben Ramos (Mayapur - IN) Sacidulal (das) TKG (Mayapur - IN) Saunaka Rsi (das) SDG (IC) (Ireland) Sri Govinda (das) PVS (Moscow - R) Suka Zimmerman (Philadelphia, PA - USA) Sukhada (das) JPS (TP New Orleans, LA - USA) Tamal Krishna Goswami Tattvavit (das) ACBSP (NE-BBT) Tirtharaj (das) TKG (Brisbane - AU) Tripurari (das) HDG (BHTSKP - USA) Tukarama (das) LOK (San Jose, CA - USA) Vamanadeva (das) HKS (Warsaw - PL) Varshana (dd) HDG (Los Angeles, CA - USA) Virabhadra (das) JDG (I) Vishaka (dd) ACBSP (Los Angeles, CA - USA) Yadu-srestha (das) PVS (Melbourne - AU) VAST (Vaishnava Advanced Studies) has the following Internet members: Alberto.Perez@pronto.bbt.se bhavasindhu1@juno.com braj108m@slip.net cgeer1008@aol.com csbrook2@hamlet.uncg.edu( Kalavati) dbuchta@emory.edu(Dave Buchta) dgovinda@aol.com(Dhira-Govinda) easter@otn.net -- gregjay@poi.net gthursby@religion.ufl.edu(Gene Thrursby) hollyo@mail.utexas.edu ithamar@post.tau.ac.il(Isvara-Krsna) janbrz@microtec.net(Jagananada) kp.das@virgin.net(Krsna Pracara) mpt@u.washington.edu(Mukund Datta) mrkanda@hotmail.com murphy@biology.ucsc.edu premananda@malmo.mail.telia.com rmmohana@iafrica.com 0 0 0 0 0 vajra8@aol.com> Vishnu Gada See Related VNN Stories | Comment on this Story | Contact VNN regarding this Story
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