© 1998 VNN
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November 18, 1998 VNN2521
Conspiracy To Terminate The ISKCON Women's Ministry BY ARDHABUDDHI DASA USA, Nov 18 (VNN) — On September 28, 1998, a secret COM conference called GHQ was launched by a small group of men known to oppose the ISKCON Women's Ministry. Originally organized by Shyamasundara (the astrologer), the goal of this conference was to turn back the clock on the recent progress made by ISKCON Vaisnavis in their struggle to be recognized as individuals with the right to serve guru and Krsna according to their propensities. The men appear to have been inspired by their discussions on the COM conference "Dharma of Women" (recently strategically renamed "Dharma of Men and Women") in which they tried to explain many current ISKCON problems as being due to women not acting according to Vedic principles. These men have been known to selectively use quotes by Srila Prabhupada, Manu Samitha and Chanakya Pandit to blame everything from divorce to wife abuse on the women's attitudes and behaviors. As illustrated in the following statement made by Shyamasudara in a letter to Jasomatinandana, it is obvious that they considered themselves to be in a state of war. In an early text, Shyamasundara wrote: "We are seriously organizing a counteroffensive against the feminists who are a plague in our movement. We need your help. We have set up a central command post and are seeking out devotees who can help in this mission." (see below for full text) As of mid September, this conference consisted of a core of up to 17 men, plus other sympathizers who were brought into the discussions on an "as-needed" basis. These GHQ conference members were Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN), Bhakti Vikasa Swami, Bhanu Swami (Madras - IN), Danavir das Goswami (USA), Dayaram (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN), Goloka Candra (das) JPS (Malaysia), Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL - USA), Jasomatinandan (das) ACBSP (Gujarat - IN), Jaya Tirtha Charan (das) JPS, Jivan Mukta (das) TSI (Back to Basics) (Ontario - CAN), Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA), Prithu (das) ACBSP, Rasananda Swami (USA), Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College -USA), Svavasa (das) ACBSP (NA-BBT), Trivikrama Swami, Vidvan Gauranga (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN), and Ameyatma Dasa. The group also included Sadhusangananda, TP of ISKCON Boston, although due to his travel schedule, he was not very active initially. Jivanmukta's wife Sita was the only woman active in these discussions. One of her main roles appears to have been to leak texts from the "International Women's Conference" on COM to the GHQ members and do search folio for quotes intended to disempower women. As can be seen in the first text below, they used their secret conference to brainstorm strategies to terminate the women's ministry (including many discussions on whether these efforts should concentrate on damaging the reputations of Vaisnavi leaders or of the male ISKCON leaders who support the women's ministry), share research, collect dossiers of "dirt" on opponents in an effort to discredit them, pre-empt women's concerns by pretending to care about their protection, strategize how to get women to lose their cool on COM while they themselves appeared as gentlemen, identify high level supporters/ ambivalent leaders /opponents, get feminism declared a form of atheism or mayavada philosophy, organize campaigns to protest official statements by the Women's Ministry etc. Their ultimate goal was (and still is) to write a proposal to the GBC to terminate the women's ministry and to limit service opportunities for ISKCON Vaisnavis. The members spent considerable time trying to identify possible GBC level supporters and opponents (see COM text 1737640 below). Using the analogy of "triage" in war, in which medical personnel have to quickly identify soldiers whose injuries are treatable vs. life-threatening. Shyamasundara proposed dividing ISKCON leaders into 3 categories, namely: "1) Pro-Vedic, 2) Unidentified or loyalty unknown at this time, and 3) Purvapakshin." Efforts were made to enlist the members in the first category in support of their upcoming proposal. In Shyamasundara's words "Those in group 2 should be preached to vigorously so that they support us or show their colors." In contrast, "Purvapakshins" should be discredited or simply ignored. One of the much-discussed strategies in the GHQ focused on how to pre-empt the legitimate concerns of ISKCON vaisnavis. The most popular strategy for accomplishing this is illustrated in the following quote from one of their texts: "as a tactic (following BSST in the brahmana and vaishnava debate) put their concern as our first concern. Then we put the second concern to show how to deal with the first concern in reality. What do you all think? Before they jump in and show fingers to us as if we are abusing the women, we point fingers at the men and deal with this. So now they have nothing to point fingers at." This quote clearly shows that these men are not genuinely interested in women's concerns but that they would simply use calls for the protection of women to advance their own cause, i.e. control of women. Many of the GHQ texts were also devoted to discussing the members' public replies to different COM texts. One of the most discussed such texts involved a letter written by Jasomatinandana, in which he criticized Malati's GBC appointment. Although no GHQ members appeared capable of realizing why mainstream devotees had been offended by Jasomatinandana's text, they agreed that it might be best if they tone down future attacks for tactical reasons. They also spent a fair amount of time analyzing and criticizing men who appeared to support the objectives of the women's ministry. The following statement by Jivanmukta (in response to a letter written by Hari Sauri in support of Malati) illustrates clearly the tone of such texts. Jivanmukta wrote (see below for full text) "It is men like Hari Sauri that are at the root of our problems. It is men like him that undermine a husband's authority over his wife. Instead of seizing the moment to preach to her and show her the path of dharma, how she should follow her prescribed duty etc. he wimps out and encourages her! Who said this guy is on our side anyway? He is a total embarrassment!" In the initial conference texts, the GHQ members were more freely showing their true color and frequently referred to ISKCON women as "obnoxious", "feminazis" and even as not having souls, to the "ISKCON Women's Ministry" as the "ISKCON Whore Ministry" and to the "International Women's Conference" as the "International Witches Conference". In one text, Shyamasundara asked Jaya Tirtha Caran "How do you feel about the feminists in ISKCON?". JTC replied "Mmmmmmmm! I must admit although they appear to be spirit souls like those of us either wearing male or female bodies, in actually they have no soul. Yes, you guessed it, I really can't stand them,..." (see below for full text). In later texts, the men appear to have realized that by showing their true feelings so openly on the conference, they may also later inadvertently slip up and use these offensive labels in public. They therefore devised a system of referring to their opponents either as "purvapakshins" or by their initials only. Since this change was only tactical and cosmetic, it appears clear that we can not take seriously any claims made by these men that they are interested in bringing back "Vedic culture" to ISKCON. Some of the conference members appear to be very skilled in the art of deception. For example, Vidvan Gauranga writes (in response to a question of whether he feels up to debating Sudharma and Pranada of the women's ministry): "No I am not afraid of being intimidated. I am just playing the same game they are playing. They try to get support by saying "Ah! we are called feminazis!" etc. So I am also crying out, "Ah! I am called a woman-hater! Ah!" hi hi hi When you fight, you have to use the same kind of weaponry that the opponent uses." He also explained to a concerned fellow GHQ member why he had expressed faith that the Women's Ministry was "doing something to stop feminist preaching". VG replied to this concern in the following way: "I have to say like that because only then will they start listening to us. Otherwise, they will turn a deaf ear to us, even if we speak in accordance with Prabhupada, Sadhu and Sastra. They are women, so you have to be emotional, sensitive and diplomatic with them. To NOT do so, I opine, is not strategic." Although the GHQ members typically insist that opponents always quote sastra, they seem to hold themselves to a somewhat lower standard: Shyamasundara wrote: "A man of sense only trifles with them [women], plays with them, humors and flatters them, as he does with a sprightly and forward child; but he neither consults them about, nor trusts them with, serious matters." Earl of Chesterfield. To which Vidvan Gauranga replied: "Good stuff. Bhaktividya Purna Maharaja told me the same thing." And these are the same men who are currently bashing their opponents all over COM for even daring to use "logic and common sense" if this process does not involve quoting sastra. In an ironic twist of fate, the conference organizers must have had some kind of insight into the devious nature of their scheme. During the last days of the conference, one member commented that the "COM Gods" may not be pleased by their efforts and might thus arrange to have them exposed. The conference was therefore recently taken off COM and continued privately. Unfortunately for the members, this insight came too late. Before the conference went off the air, one of its members had second thoughts. Although he agreed with many of the traditional views expressed by the others, he found their modus operandum to be distasteful and therefore decided to share the plans with Vaisnavas and Vaisnavis worldwide. Although we will respect his wish to remain anonymous, we greatly appreciate the courage he showed by sharing these texts with us. Selected GHQ texts are presented below, so that the readers can judge the mood of these men for themselves: Text 1737639 (139 lines) From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) Date: 02-Oct-98 06:50 +0000 To: GHQ [47] Subject: More strategy ------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Maharajas and Prabhus, Please except my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Continuing on with Maharajas ideas about strategy and tactics: What exactly are our ultimate objectives? These objectives may go beyond the next GBC meeting. Here is a list of some suggested objectives: 1) No women in leadership positions, this means in GBC, temple presidents, the GBC secretaries, ISKCON officers or spokespersons (such as in ISKCON communications which is heavily dominated by feminists). 2) Terminating the present Woman's Ministry. 3) The Grhasta Ministry should be an umbrella for the Woman's Ministry, no previous officers of Woman's Ministry to hold office in the Grhasta Ministry. This is in keeping with no women in leadership positions. 4) Feminist philosophy to be banned as materialistic, atheistic and mayavada. (We have to demonstrate this.) Any person advocating or propagating feminism in any way, shape, or form to be considered as seriously deviating from Srila Prabhupada teachings, Vaisnava siddhanta, and Vedic culture. They must resign all positions in ISKCON, and leave the movement. They can only return if it can be demonstrated that they are no longer infected with this pernicious disease. (This could be demonstrated by writing a paper refuting feminism, and preaching vigorously against feminism.) 5) All ISKCON media such as COM, Hare Krsna World, ISKCON Communications Journal, etc., censored for feminism. 6) No temple shall host feminist meetings. 7) Women not allowed to give classes or lead kirtanas. (Unless there are no qualified men to do so, only then can they take up these services.) As I said these are only suggestions. As you can see they constitute mostly "Do Nots", and one "Do". To make it balanced several "Do's" should be included. Any ideas? How long would this take? We should try to make as big of an impact as possible at the next GBC meeting and hopefully fulfill all of our objectives. But we should be prepared for the long haul. Membership in GHQ: As Maharaja pointed out it would become too unwieldy if we had too many members in the forum. Yet at the same time we need a lot of help. One idea would be to form cells. That is, that each member of GHQ form his own contact group, which would be called a "cell". And each member of the cell would have his own cell in which he would be the leader, and so on. In this way some type of workable command structure can be put into place so that things can get done without excessive discussion. Don't forget the Italian saying: "fati masqui, parola femina." Which means: men do; women talk. So far I have identified there are four types of services that are required to fulfill this mission: researching, writing, editing, and lobbying. Some persons may have more than one of the skills. RESEARCHERS: to go through Folio, Vedic sastras, and modern feminist and antifeminist literature for relevant quotations. For example it was noted that the Mormons are the fastest-growing religion in the world, yet they decry having women in leadership roles. One of the myths propagated by the feminists in ISKCON is that if we want to attract intelligent women we have to put women in leadership roles. This myth is exploded by the Mormons. Also, if by intelligent women is meant the kind embodied by the leaders of the feminists, we don't want them. In any case, such references to the Mormons should be looked up. WRITERS: to put together essays on various topics regarding feminism, and the place of women in Vedic culture. EDITORS: to skillfully put our literary package together. LOBBYISTS: to network throughout ISKCON to find support for our cause. Lobbyists should mainly focus on the following groups: GBC's, Sannyasis, Temple Presidents, senior devotees, Matajis (especially those who are Prabhupada disciples), and devotees who can help as researchers, writers, or editors. They should utilize the principle of Triage and not waste time on those who are obviously feminists. Our counterattack is composed of two components: 1) Our written presentation which is based on Guru, Sadhu, and Sastra. This is the ammunition. 2) The allies who we forge through our lobbying. They are the ones who will use our ammunition to convince others. We need both to be successful. I don't think getting allies will be very difficult, practically everybody I've mentioned it to was very enthusiastic. The vast silent majority of devotees, are fed up and sick of these feminists. But they have felt isolated because of thinking they were alone because of the volume of the feminist rhetoric. It is our business then to give them the weapons which they can then use to fight against feminism. (I would think that it would be a good idea to release our weapon to all our friends and supporters at the same time or perhaps a little before we give it to the GBC. Not too much before we give it too the GBC or it will leak to the feminists who may then have time to try to counter it.) So one decision we have to make is how many people should be on the forum. Should there be a cutoff point? Or should we just add as needed? Already many devotees have been suggested for different roles, it may be better if the devotee who suggests that person simply cultivate that person, enthuse them and engage them in the appropriate service, without adding them to the GHQ, unless there is some overriding factor to the contrary, such that their presence on GHQ would be very necessary. THE WEAPON (sastra can be considered as a weapon, note the "astra" in sastra): The presentation will come in two sizes: MAHA: a collection of quotations from Srila Prabhupada and the sastras arranged in appropriate topics. Plus essays by devotees on selected topics. The subject for these topics has been given by Jivanmukta. However we still need some devotees to take up some writing assignments. I have volunteered for one, but that will not be enough. LAGHU: a short four or five page, concise presentation to the GBC. We need to discuss what the contents of this presentation is going to be, because on the basis of this presentation we shall sink or swim. The topics have to be very skillfully chosen and presented if we want to have a chance with the GBC who are very busy. If we do this correctly it will go in like a needle, and out like a plow. I suggest that one of the subjects of this paper be to show why feminism is very dangerous for Vedic culture. We do not have to go very deep in any of the points which we present. We can simply present the point, develop it a little and then refer to the large presentation for more details. Obviously this paper can be written after the main one is done because we will use the main paper as reference point. Your servant Shyamasundara Dasa (Text 1737639) --------------------------------------------- * Subsequent texts are presented in chronological order to help the readers get a feel for the flow of these discussions. Please note that texts which appear out of order were originally sent as private letters and were only later forwarded to the conference. Text 1726720 (72 lines) From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) Date: 28-Sep-98 12:01 +0000 To: GHQ [1] Subject: We are finally on. ------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Maharajas and Prabhus, PAMHO AGTSP. We are finally on line. It took a while but we did it. There were several theories about the delay , the the sysop's wife may be a feminist etc, but I think the real reason is because of a combination of the following reasons: there is no assisant sysop thus Raktambara does everything, he also has a partime job, 1/2 the devotees have left Korsnas Gard as a result of the HKS debacle, they are having financial troubles, there is concern for the very future of COM, etc. I think it will stay online, it has become too vital for ISKCON management. Anyway so far I have added the following members: Bhakti Vikasa Swami Rasananda Swami Basu Ghosh Jivan Mukta Krishna Kirti Guru-Krsna myself Please suggest who else should be on board? Possible suggestions: Jasomatinanda Sadhusangananda (Boston TP) Vidvan Gauranga Prthu Ameyatma Dayarama Bhakti Vidyapurna Swami I should say from the onset I am not in charge of the forum, I just volunteered to be the organizer for logitical reasons. This I am only the facilitator not the BOSS. Aside from that my health has not been good for the several months and I am have several writing projects to deal with. So I see my involvement as facilitator, giving some suggestions, and possibly writing something on one of the topics mentioned by Jivanmukta. In anycase it is too big a project for one person and we need input from many. For example Vidvan Guaranga has already written something on the subject. Jasomatinanda Prabhu said he has done some research etc. So we can and should expect to get contributions from various sources. Regarding support: My understanding so far is that the following leading devotees are favorable to our cause: Hari Sauri Prabhu Jasomamtinanda Prabhu Prthu " Sivarama Swami Sridhara Swami Jayadvaja Swami Rtadvaja Swami Niranjana Swami Keshava Bharti Prabhu Any others? Possibly they may be asked if they have anything that they would like write or include. I know that Prthu Prabhu is a researcher and writer so he may have something. Anyway it is time to get the ball rolling. Your worthless servant Shyamasundara Dasa (Text 1726720) --------------------------------------------- Letter COM:1698466 (22 lines) From: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA) Subject: women & management ------------------------------------------------------------ What do you all think? I think that it must be accompanied by some genuine, substantial offer of protection from the "male community." There are so many women in our movement who have had husbands that have renounced them, for mostly sinful purposes, and then those same men have been tolerated and embraced by our institution. Meanwhile, no one gives a thought for the "stalwart" Prabhu's suffering former family. ys KKd My view is that we should not go astray with many different points. We have a goal which is to present to GBC a reasonable paper pointing out the mistake in giving so much freedom to women in our society such as women GBC and on. RS That is alright. We are coming up with a paper which points out the mistake of giving unrestricted freedom to women. A woman's dharma is to be under the protection of a male at all phases of her life. The solution we are proposing, therefore, must also address the issue of who will assume responsibility for their protection and what happens if that contract is violated by either her protector or by the woman herself. It is an essential point. ys KKd (Text COM:1698466) ----------------------------------------- Letter COM:1714977 (38 lines) From: Bhakti Vikasa Swami Date: 24-Sep-98 10:47 To: Comment: Text COM:1719236 by Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) Subject: Re: malati's response ------------------------------------------------------------ "Purvapakshin" is the best word, as it brings images of a dignified, rather than purely political, opponent. Often, the other party have made most undignified attacks (I was the subject of one of them, on Chakra); but our hope should be that "amanina manadena" on our part will sober them up. We should bring discussion up from the emotional level and oppose them on sastric grounds, on which we are certain to prevail. Slanging matches are fit for uneducated village women. We can't win on that level. I'm not suggesting that our presentation should not be strong. But the sastric quotes are in themselves so heavy that we hardly need to add our own expletives. For instance, using Srila Prabhupada's definition of a prostitute, we can (in polite terms) question the status of re-married Iskcon women. This is certain to get the feminazis highly riled, as they are mostly re-married divorcees, but we can simply cooly again present the Prabhupada quote to them, and not allow them to obfuscate the point with their name-calling. Letter COM:1719256 (11 lines) From: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) Daived: 26-Sep-98 00:42) Reference: Text COM:1717764 by Internet: Jivan Mukta Dasa Subject: Re: Mother Malati ------------------------------------------------------------ After reading such trash consider that the GBC patted themselves on the back by giving her the GBC candidacy. We heard that not all the GBC members voted on it though. Hopefully these individuals will start speaking up against this act of irreligion. When we asked Gopala Krsna Maharaja about it, he said that if it was a wrong decision, then we should have faith that they will change it. But why was it allowed to happen in the first place?! Because the GBC - our blind uncles - take decisions that are not based on "shastra pramanas". This ought to be corrected or; yah shastra vidhim utrijya... comes into effect, no? (Text COM:1719256) ----------------------------------------- Letter COM:1725519 (34 lines) From: Internet: Sadhu1008@aol.com Date: 27-Sep-98 23:38 To: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) [6269] (received: 28-Sep-98 00:35) Cc: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) [5138] (sender: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)) Cc: Jivan Mukta Dasa (sender: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)) Comment: Text COM:1725605 by Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) Subject: Essay on women in ISKCON ------------------------------------------------------------ Pamho. AGTSP. After having been attacked recently in a somewhat outrageous way by one of the feminist leaders of the movement, and her academic boyfriend, I have taken my time to 'get into the issue' again and read hundreds of texts in various women issue related conferences. Since I found yours very balanced, sastrically sound and in general very good I humbly request you to compile a sound essay for the GBC before they get completely swamped with feminist demands and proposals. Currently, the GBC is practically caving in under their pressure, the NA GBC meetings are already controlled by them in an embarrassing way, etc. If you could take out time for this project, you could do the movement a great favor. It is interesting to note in this regard that most of the religious movements which are considered the faster growing ones in the world (like the Mormons) don't put women in leadership positions and they have no problem with that. In fact, they are surprised that we do. In other words the argument that we have to cater to the senses to mundaners, academics, feminists, etc. in order to grow as a movement is simply bogus. Anyway, so much more could be said, but I just wanted to express my appreciation for your realizations on the matter and hope that you will find time to render a conclusive paper to the movement which is pleasing to Srila Prabhupada and helpful for generations to come. Hope this meets you well. Y.s. Sadhusangananda das . (Text COM:1725519) ----------------------------------------- Letter COM:1729360 (64 lines) [W1] From: Jaya Tirtha Charan (das) JPS Date: 29-Sep-98 09:23 To: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) [5193] Reference: Text COM:1729007 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) Comment: Text COM:1731197 by Shyamasundara ACBSP Subject: Re: =>:-) ------------------------------------------------------------ How do you feel about the feminists in ISKCON? I noted that you had a few sparring matches with Mad Radha. Shyama PAMHO., AGTSP., Mmmmmmmm! I must admit although they appear to be spirit souls like those of us either wearing male or female bodies, in actually they have no soul. Yes, you guessed it, I really can't stand them, and as you may have seen in my chart too, it predicts that I'd have trouble with "these fellows". To me they defy nature!!! I did start writing a paper on feminism, some years ago, but came to a conclusion that even if one of these arrogant personalities did in fact read it, they'd only use the excuse that I was sexist, or the like. Are they really in Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon, or have they started their own philosophy within Iskcon??? One of my friends summed it up in a similar matter of some indigenous people in New Zealand, whose crime rate, alcohol consumption, domestic violence, etc., far exceeds the others in NZ. He made the point it's not that I'm racist, I just find a certain kind of behaviour unacceptable. It doesn't matter what the colour they're Niggers!!! In the same way these feminists in my opinion are the ones who due to their transgressing the shy and pure nature of real womanhood, are bringing, and have brought society to above their knees. We used to have one in our group here, she was a constant pain in the ......., not just for the men, but also for the women too. She ended up misleading a few, but then her husband left her, and she took off to another temple. Now she's in the process of marrying a REAL eunoch - he's totally enamoured, and she's wearing the pants already. Got to go, it's getting late. For God's sake don't distribute this to any of them.......! I've spent years fighting with these people, and their onesided "libralism"........! ys, anonny mouse!!! P.S. thanks for the Astro-stuff. (Text 1738398) --------------------------------------------- Text 1737640 (128 lines) From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) Date: 02-Oct-98 06:50 +0000 To: GHQ [48] Subject: TRIAGE ------------------------------------------------------------ I am sneding this GHQ so that everyone can see it who didn't before. I have adjusted the list according to latest news ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- TRIAGE Dear Maharajas and Prabhus, PAMHO AGTSP Aside from writing papers which is of vital necessity to present a solid philosophical basis for our platform, we must also organize popular support from the movers and shakers in ISKCON. In military or emergency medical situations when there are many victims the attending physicians perform Triage. That is, they divide the survivors into three groups: 1. Those that will die no matter what medical care is given. To them some comfort is given so that they die as painlessly as possible. 2. Those who if treated will probably recover. 3. Those who if left alone untreated will survive anyway. Having done this triage, they then concentrate all their energy on saving those that would die without treatment. I suggest that we do something similar, that we divide senior or influential devotees into three groups and deal with them differently. The groups are: 1) Pro-Vedic. They are the ones who are for the traditional Vedic relationship between men and women as is enunciated in Srila Prabhupada's books and is the understanding of the general devotee. 2) Unidentified or loyalty unknown at this time. 3) Purvapakshin. Those who favor feminism, and male-female equality. We should identify all those in group 1 as quickly as possible and rally their support for our cause. Those in group 2 should be preached to vigorously so that they support us or show their colors. Those in group 3, well they are the ones who we are contending with in this ideological war for the future of ISKCON and Vedic Dharma. So far I have identified the following as members of these three categories. PRO-VEDIC: Virabahu Prabhu GBC Svavas Prabhu BBT Trustee and GBC candidate Hari Sauri Prabhu Bhakti Caru Swami GBC Trivikrama Swami GBC Rtadvaja Swami Bhakti Vidya Purna Swami Bhakti Vikasa Swami Jayadvaja Swami Jasomatinandana Prabhu Dayarama Prabhu Mahabuddhi Prabhu Keshava Bharti Prabhu Nirajana Swami GBC Prthu Prabhu GBC Danavira Swami UNIDENTIFIED: Jayadvaita Swami BBT Trustee Bhakti Tirtha Swami GBC Radhanatha Swami GBC Bhanu Swami Bhakti Marga Swami Prahladhananda Swami Badrinarayana Prabhu GBC Varshana Swami Hari Vilasa Prabhu GBC Guru Prasada Swami GBC Jayapataka Swami GBC Ravindra Swarupa GBC Suhotra Swami GBC Madhusevita Prabhu GBC and BBT Trustee Vaidyanatha Prabhu GBC Drutakarma Prabhu PURVAPAKSHIN: Bir-Krishna Swami GBC Hrdayananda Swami GBC Mukunda Swami GBC Naveen Krsna Prabhu GBC Vipramukhya Swami Umapati Swami Malati dd GBC Nagaraja, Editor BTG Staff at Hare Krsna World Women's Ministry including: Sudharma Pranada Rasa Gamya (Naveen's wife) Jyotir Mayi dd Madhusudhani Radha dd Advaita Prabhu Giriraja Swami GBC Obviously this is not an exhaustive list. Some names may be added or changed from one list to another. Regarding Virabahu and Svavas Prabhu, I would like to ask HH Rasananda Swami Maharaja, since he is in that locale, to please approach them and seek their valuable support to our cause. These person's can be approached either directly or via email. It is important to get as much support as possible from the leading devotees in ISKCON if we are to make an impact. Our work of presenting a paper or series of papers will bear more fruit if we have a receptive audience waiting to read it. Your humble servant Shyamasundara Dasa (Text 1737640) --------------------------------------------- Text 1737737 (37 lines) From: Bhakti Vikasa Swami Date: 02-Oct-98 08:29 +0100 Refernce: Text 1737639 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) To: GHQ [52] Subject: More strategy ------------------------------------------------------------ To make it balanced several "Do's" should be included. Any ideas? Women (and men) to be trained in traditional role models. So far I have identified there are four types of services that are required to fulfill this mission: researching, writing, editing, and lobbying. I think I could act as a lobbyist. It would probably be more effective for a sannyasi to lobby other sannyasis. Not too much before we give it too the GBC or it will leak to the feminists who may then have time to try to counter it.) In the modern age, as soon as something is out, the whole world knows about it. one of the subjects of this paper be to show why feminism is very dangerous for Vedic culture. This presumes that our leaders are convinced of the need for Vedic culture. I'm not sure that they all are, or that they all have much idea about what it's about. JM wrote of the need to show how that, although Srila Prabhupada made concessions for the circumstances he was preaching in, he wanted us to move towards the ideal of Vedic culture. This is a key point and one that will be vigorously contested. It needs to be demonstrated very clearly--our case may rest on it. I'm off to Russia now. You may or may not hear from me in the next few weeks. Dasanudasa, Bhakti Vikasa Swami (Text 1737737) --------------------------------------------- Text 1738350 (7 lines) From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) Date: 02-Oct-98 12:09 +0000 To: GHQ [64] Subject: Security ------------------------------------------------------------ Needless to say the texts on ths conference are not to be circulated. "Loose lips sink ships." Also for your information this forum is hidden, only members will find it listed on the list of forums not anyone else. No one can see the status of this forum even if somehow they stumbled across it, that way no one would know who is on this forum. (Text 1738350) --------------------------------------------- Text 1729575 (16 lines) From: Bhakti Vikasa Swami Date: 29-Sep-98 11:53 +0100 To: GHQ [8] Subject: Some observations ------------------------------------------------------------ I recently saw in the Iskcon Communications Journal the transcript of a speech given at the infamous Iskcon Womens' meet in LA. It presented the rights of women in Iskcon according to International Law. It should be exposed that the feminists are appealing to a totally non-sastric source: the laws of a demoniac society that supports divorce, homosexuality etc. in the name of "equality" and "rights." That members of our movement can be so "off" and get Gbc support for it is frightening. What is more frightening is the possibility that our liberated mothers might throw the karmi law book at us and use the clout of state law to enforce "womens' rights" in our temples and communities. It is interesting to note how ICJ and Iskcon World Review (now Hare Krsna Today) have systematically promoted within our society the values of the secular humanist liberal (i.e. atheistic) "civilization." (Text 1729575) --------------------------------------------- Text 1729577 (41 lines) From: Bhakti Vikasa Swami Date: 29-Sep-98 11:53 +0100 Refernce: Text 1726720 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) To: GHQ [10] Subject: Strategy and action ------------------------------------------------------------ At this stage a small tight team, all of whose members can invest substantial time, needs to be put together. Too many in the core group will make it unwieldy for the quick action that is required. I'm just heading into the Russian mess and doubt if I will be able to give much time in the next few weeks. I strongly recommend Vidvan being called in. He is learned and both clear and level headed. At first, goals and strategies have to be set. Do you intend to establish a beach-head at Mayapur '99 or will you try to win the whole war? Remember that there will be other major issues on the table. Quickly define goals and strategies, then get to work fast. Time is of the essence. Again, I must emphasize my strong feeling that we should keep cool, even when outrageously maligned. Outrageous maligning is standard feminist m.o., but it will not help our cause to respond in the same way. Rather, we should appeal to the intelligence of the Gbc men (who are the ones who have to decide). We should be especially careful not to alienate Gbc men by condemning them, but should learn from Lord Caitanya the art of politely overcoming opponents by better arguments (as with the Lord's dealings with Keshav Kashmiri, Sarvabhauma etc.). Maybe we should stop using slighting words like "feminazi" even among ourselves, lest they slip out and further outrage the hot tempered purvapakshins. Pre-meeting lobbying is essential, starting with Gbc's who are known to be favorable. I think Shyama would be good for this. As far as I know he is respected and not considered political. But first the presentation has to be got together. I suggest that there should be two papers: one short and to the point, another like a tome with all kinds of back-up quotes and arguments. Remember that Gbc's, especially at meeting time, are deluged with papers and simply won't look at a presentation that is more than a few pages long. But they might look at a paper of 2-4 pages that is well-written and to the point. They won't give more than a glance at your tome, but it needs to be there for them to see that you are serious and have done your homework. (Text 1729577) --------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- Forwarded text by Krishna-kirti : In my view, it seems that replying privately to her and others of her ilk is a waste of time. All replies to such letters should be public, even if they request a private reply. Otherwise we are wasting energy. But anyway, you can see from the above how they argue, and what are their strengths and weaknesses. One of their weaknesses is that they are deficient in shastra, and long on selectively quoting Srila Prabhupada. For the paper to also be effective, we need a database of feminist arguments for "equality", because it is these points we are dealing with and have enamoured many leaders as well as rank and file. Some of our strongest arguments will come from arguments which they have also used: sarganam adir antas ca madhyam caivaham arjuna adhyatma-vidya vidyanam vadah pravadatam aham "Of all creations I am the beginning and the end and also the middle, O Arjuna. Of all sciences I am the spiritual science of the self, and among logicians, I am the conclusive truth." Purport ". . .Among logicians there are different kinds of argument. Supporting one's argument with evidence that also supports the opposing side is called jalpa. Merely trying to defeat one's opponent is called vitanda. But the actual conclusion is called vada. This conclusive truth is a representation of Krishna." I have heard that Jivan Mukta P. has such a database of their arguments. Is that true, JM Prabhu? Another thing is that when we present quotations from manu Samhita or other dharma shastras not translated by Srila Prabhupad, we have to also quote the sanskrit and be sure that the translation is accurate. I would highly recommend Basu Ghosh Prabhu for this. For any Bengali, Bhakti Vikas Maharaj. Our arguments have to be airtight. Your fallen servant, Krishna-kirti das (Text 1729912) --------------------------------------------- Text 1731602 (15 lines) From: Rasananda Swami (USA) Date: 29-Sep-98 18:52 -0700 To: GHQ [16] Subject: all glories to ghq ------------------------------------------------------------ Camp: Los Angeles, CA Dear Syamasundara Prabhu. Please, accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. I just spoke with Svavasa Prabhu and he agrees 100% with our views. He agrees to participate in the discussions. Please, add him in the conference. Could you please send a list of all participantes in this conference? As people are joining the conference I would like to know who they are. Please, add Danavir Goswami as well. Hoping you are well, your servant, Rasananda Swami (Text 1731602) --------------------------------------------- Text 1735376 (27 lines) From: Bhakti Vikasa Swami Date: 01-Oct-98 11:55 +0100 To: GHQ [27] Subject: The challenge ------------------------------------------------------------ London, 30 Sep 98 I just visited Foyles, one of the world's largest bookshops, to try and find a concise overview of the feminist movement, its history, objectives, and impact. I didn't find such a book, so if anyone knows of such a volume, please let me know. What I did find was a large section in the shop dedicated to womens' issues. Browsing through some volumes gave me some perspective on how big a social force feminism is in contemporary society, and of how atheistic it is (being strongly linked to Darwinistic anthropology and the materialistic world view that goes with it). This may not be news to most of you--please bear with me, remembering that I live in India and tend to interact mostly with traditionalists, rather than modernists, there. Anyway, my consternation at the influence of feminism within our movement is much increased. The challenge is not one simply of social ideology (as if that were not a big enough issue) but of underlying atheistic trends threatening to infiltrate our movement. It is interesting to note that two of the most prominent (and obnoxious) protaginists of feminism within Iskcon, namely M. Radha and Dhyana Kund, both have degrees in psychology and are thus well steeped in atheistic world views. Is it possible to get Drutakarma Prabhu involved in our cause? He is undoubtedly very busy, but he is a tremendous scholar and writer, much in touch with secular scholarly ideas, and expert in rebutting them in their own terms. (Text 1735376) --------------------------------------------- Comments: Text 1737635 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) Text 1736978 (2 lines) From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) Date: 01-Oct-98 22:16 +0000 To: GHQ [29] Subject: Women Preaching ------------------------------------------------------------ "A woman's preaching the like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It does not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all." Samuel Johnson (Text 1736978) --------------------------------------------- ----------------------------- FW: letter by Jivanmukta: Dear Prabhus and Maharajas, PAMHO. AGTSP. I would like to suggest that we involve the following devotees in compiling this paper or series of papers to present to the GBC: Ameyatma prabhu Shyamasundara Prabhu Vidva Gauranga Prabhu Guru-Krsna Prabhu Mother Yasomati Mother Gandhari Sita dd. (my wife) I feel it is very important that we address all the points brought up in the papers presented by Mothers Jyotirmayi, Pranada and Visakha. Their misunderstandings must be clearly exposed. We can either do so as a point by point rebuttal or they may be addressed by presenting a comprehensive paper dealing with the categories outlined below. Or we could do both. Please give your feedback on this summary. What else should be added or removed? Should it be structured in an entirely different manner? This is sent out to start the process. There were some very disturbing remarks made by certain GBC members regarding this women's issue. In particular Mukunda Maharaja made some extremely perverse remarks about *what Prabhupada would do today*. I feel this type of remark and attitude must also be addressed. Please note that we are well on our way of categorizing all the text on the DoW conference. Many of the texts will be helpful in isolating the various arguments used against dharma and the various scriptural rebuttals. We could make those available to the devotees working on the various categories. We could also send the entire archive out to whomever requests it. I will be quite tied up during the next two weeks especially during November to December. I will do whatever I can to help. Time is of essence and at least if we have our format we could seek input and assistance from the assembled devotees. We could also provide the many quotes and scriptural reference to the devotees that require some research assistance. I am very encouraged by the resolve of you Prabhus and Matajis in seeing that Prabhupada's movement becomes the glorious representation of Vedic culture it was intended to be. I offer my respectful obeisances to you all. Note: 1. Vidvan Gauranga Prabhu has already prepared a paper entitled "The Whole Problem". It was a cogent response to some feminist propaganda by Madusudhani Radha dd. , Pranada dd. and others. He also sent a proposal to the GBC EC entitled "Proposal to establish & preserve sannyasa-, stri- & grhastha-dharmas". With Vivan Gauranga Prabhu's permission, I could forward these files to the assembled devotees. Waiting for your feedback. 2. Ameyatma Prabhu has many books available on his homepage that could be used as they are or could be referenced for many of these issues. He has also volunteered to present a seminar in Toronto on "Teaching the Principles of Dharma to Our Children" and " Marriage of the Daughter" emphasizing the importance of Chastity and the importance of Protecting Women's Chastity. 3. Guru-Krsna Prabhu has volunteered to present a paper on Divorce for a proposed summer of 1999 Dharma Symposium in Toronto. 4. Mother Gandhari has a course of Vedic morality from which she teaches. 5. Jayasila Prabhu the grhastha Minister could be invited to participate. He has a manual on the Grhastha ashrma and has expressed his support for the objectives of the DoW Conference. 6. I have prepared a few a essays entitled: Gender Ethics, Compassionate Compromises (KC in the Early Days) and Lord Caitanya did not reject VAD. Maybe someone may want to look at what has already been prepared and determine how to proceed. Ys. Jivan Mukta Dasa --------------------------------- Text 1737623 (29 lines) From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) Date: 02-Oct-98 06:50 +0000 To: Jasomatinandan (das) ACBSP (Gujarat - IN) [1234] (received: 02-Oct-98 14:29 +0630) Bcc: GHQ [37] Subject: Feminism ------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Jaso Prabhu, AGTSP PAMHO We are seriously organizing a counter-offensive against the feminists who are a plague in our movement. We need your help. We have set up a central command post and are seeking out devotees who can help in this mission. We need devotees who can help in the following catagories: Researchers (of sastras) Writers Lobbyists (gaining support from GBC, sannyasis, Temple presidents and other senior devotees, and women) I think that you would be excellent in all three catagories. I understand that you have already done research in the matter. We need your input. If feel that you can put some serious effort into this please let me know and I will add you to the comand post. I know that you are very busy, as am I. But if we only think of our own project and don't see what is happening to ISKCON all around us then our own projects will get swallowed up by this pernicious philosophy (a mix of mayavada and darwinism) and ruined. We need help from fearless devotees like you NOW. I hope you hear the call. yhs shyamasundara dasa (Text 1737623) --------------------------------------------- Text 1737625 (32 lines) From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) Date: 02-Oct-98 06:50 +0000 Refernce: Text 1729575 by Bhakti Vikasa Swami To: GHQ [38] Subject: Some observations ------------------------------------------------------------ I recently saw in the Iskcon Communications Journal the transcript of a speech given at the infamous Iskcon Womens' meet in LA. It presented the rights of women in Iskcon according to International Law. It should be exposed that the feminists are appealing to a totally non-sastric source: the laws of a demoniac society that supports divorce, homosexuality etc. in the name of "equality" and "rights." That members of our movement can be so "off" and get Gbc support for it is frightening. What is more frightening is the possibility that our liberated mothers might throw the karmi law book at us and use the clout of state law to enforce "womens' rights" in our temples and communities. Terrifying is more like. Maya is so powerful she is bewildering our leaders. Especially with something so obviously wrong. It is interesting to note how ICJ and Iskcon World Review (now Hare Krsna Today) have systematically promoted within our society the values of the secular humanist liberal (i.e. atheistic) "civilization." Note, these are both run by Mukunda Maharaja, who is a close associate of Mother Sudharma. Jivan Mukta Prabhu, since you have been compiling the topics for the tome could you please include this: womens right by international law. (No wonder the Muslims are against the secular West, I don't balme them. You think we could get Taliban support? (: ) shyama (Text 1737625) --------------------------------------------- Text 1737627 (84 lines) From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) Date: 02-Oct-98 06:50 +0000 Refernce: Text 1729577 by Bhakti Vikasa Swami To: GHQ [39] Subject: Strategy and action ------------------------------------------------------------ At this stage a small tight team, all of whose members can invest substantial time, needs to be put together. Too many in the core group will make it unwieldy for the quick action that is required. I'm just heading into the Russian mess and doubt if I will be able to give much time in the next few weeks. I agree totally. Each person on board should play an active part. We need a disciplined force not just numbers. One idea I just had is to form cells. That is, that istead of putting all our supporters on the forum a particular devotee on GHQ could be the contact person for those devotees and he organizes what they do according to the strategy of the GHQ. We can talk more about that later. But too many is too unwieldy for sure. I strongly recommend Vidvan being called in. He is learned and both clear and level headed. Your wish is my command. He is now on. At first, goals and strategies have to be set. Do you intend to establish a beach-head at Mayapur '99 or will you try to win the whole war? Remember that there will be other major issues on the table. I think we should try for as much as possible on the first assault, but be perfectly prepared for a long campaign. It is actually a very good preaching opportunity. Lord Krsna is forcing us to define a very important issue in Vedic culture for modern times. Quickly define goals and strategies, then get to work fast. Time is of the essence. Again, I must emphasize my strong feeling that we should keep cool, even when outrageously maligned. Outrageous maligning is standard feminist m.o., but it will not help our cause to respond in the same way. Rather, we should appeal to the intelligence of the Gbc men (who are the ones who have to decide). That's what Srila Prabhupada told the reporter in England. "Cool head, but warm legs." (She was wearing a mini-skirt and asking about our shaved heads.) We should be especially careful not to alienate Gbc men by condemning them, but should learn from Lord Caitanya the art of politely overcoming opponents by better arguments (as with the Lord's dealings with Keshav Kashmiri, Sarvabhauma etc.). Maybe we should stop using slighting words like "feminazi" even among ourselves, lest they slip out and further outrage the hot tempered purvapakshins. Exactly right. Pre-meeting lobbying is essential, starting with Gbc's who are known to be favorable. I think Shyama would be good for this. As far as I know he is respected and not considered political. I don't how true that is about being respected. What does it mean to be "political" anyway. In anycase I have no aspirations to be a leader in ISKCON so I don't compete with any of them. I will do my best with those that I know. So far it has been successful. More on this later. But first the presentation has to be got together. I suggest that there should be two papers: one short and to the point, another like a tome with all kinds of back-up quotes and arguments. Remember that Gbc's, especially at meeting time, are deluged with papers and simply won't look at a presentation that is more than a few pages long. But they might look at a paper of 2-4 pages that is well-written and to the point. They won't give more than a glance at your tome, but it needs to be there for them to see that you are serious and have done your homework. Very good point about a "laghu and maha" stri dharma samhita for the GBC. shyama (Text 1737627) --------------------------------------------- Shyamasundar wrote: I have thought of asking Bharata Srestha for all the texts sent to that conference during that time and then filtering out those of the variety that MR wrote. Could either of Guru-Krsna or Krishna Kirti Prabhus please get these texts. You are his god-brother and it would be less suspicious than if I asked. It would be important research. Text 1737636 (15 lines) From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) Date: 02-Oct-98 06:50 +0000 Refernce: Text 1736257 by Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL - USA) To: GHQ [45] Subject: Drutakarma Prabhu ------------------------------------------------------------ '' ''Is it possible to get Drutakarma Prabhu involved in our cause? He is ''undoubtedly very busy, but he is a tremendous scholar and writer, much in ''touch with secular scholarly ideas, and expert in rebutting them in their ''own terms. I also had volunteered the opinon to Shyamasundara P that Drutakarma P would be a valuable assest to our cause. He is here in Alachua on a business trip (rtvik-smashing). With the permission of GHQ members, I would be happy to extend an invitation to him. ys, GKd I have already asked him and he hedged. So I doubt that you will get a positive response. (Text 1737636) --------------------------------------------- Text 1741718 (44 lines) From: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA) Date: 03-Oct-98 19:53 +0000 Refernce: Text 1741212 by Rasananda Swami (USA) To: GHQ [138] Subject: DIS Core Strategy ------------------------------------------------------------ 2) Terminating the present Woman's Ministry. The feminism movement started with slow steps and now is becoming fast. I suggest we should be fast in our objectives, but we should not try to get all that we want right now. To try to terminate the WM would be too much at the moment. We should not be seen as women haters. Somebody suggested to put the WM under care of grhasthas. I prefer this suggestion. Somehow or other the women's ministry has to go. Putting it under care of grihasthas seems the easiest to accomplish. 4) Feminist philosophy to be banned as materialistic, atheistic and mayavada. (We have to demonstrate this.) Any person advocating or propagating feminism in any way, shape, or form to be considered as seriously deviating from Srila Prabhupada teachings, Vaisnava siddhanta, and Vedic culture. They must resign all positions in ISKCON, and leave the movement. They can only return if it can be demonstrated that they are no longer infected with this pernicious disease. (This could be demonstrated by writing a paper refuting feminism, and preaching vigorously against feminism.) Although we see the feminists dangerous to ISKCON and Vedic culture, I do not see it is the right time to get in their case so heavily for now. Let us enter with a needle and leave with a plow? How would you propose to do that? If you demonstrate that feminism is indeed a deviation, then logically, everything else will have to be banned. The fundamental assumption of feminists (ISKCON or otherwise) is based on the "haves and have nots" idea of equality. As long as they do not enjoy all the perks of the priviledged, they see themselves as exploited. Or, they have desires to be exploiters. Our fundamental defense is that according to the Vedic tradition, a male is supposed to be obedient to guru and shastra, therefore his so-called dominence cannot be taken as exploitation. I think this should be our needle, but I can't see how it is going to get smaller than a missle. Even if we only present this much, the feminists are going to scream bloody murder. As such, we might as well grab for all we can. That's what they are doing, and they have made progress. Your servant, Krishna-kirti das (Text 1741718) --------------------------------------------- Text 1742107 (46 lines) From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) Date: 04-Oct-98 01:03 +0000 Refernce: Text 1741212 by Rasananda Swami (USA) To: GHQ [154] Subject: DIS More strategy ------------------------------------------------------------ 2) Terminating the present Woman's Ministry. The feminism movement started with slow steps and now is becoming fast. I suggest we should be fast in our objectives, but we should not try to get all that we want right now. To try to terminate the WM would be too much at the moment. We should not be seen as women haters. Somebody suggested to put the WM under care of grhasthas. I prefer this suggestion. The whole reason that we are simultaneaously getting support from other influencial devotees is so that we can do a lot on the first blow. Not that we just show up with a paper. We will have powerful backing from GBC,TPs, Sannyasis and senior devotees. It will be these devotees who will give us the weight and momentum to do more than move in slow steps. They moved in slow steps because they had no backing. We can get backing quickly. They are creating it for us by alienating many devotees. So we just organize those devotees, let them know we are together, give them the philosphy to use and viola things happen faster than with the feminists when they started. 4) Feminist philosophy to be banned as materialistic, atheistic and mayavada. (We have to demonstrate this.) Any person advocating or propagating feminism in any way, shape, or form to be considered as seriously deviating from Srila Prabhupada teachings, Vaisnava siddhanta, and Vedic culture. They must resign all positions in ISKCON, and leave the movement. They can only return if it can be demonstrated that they are no longer infected with this pernicious disease. (This could be demonstrated by writing a paper refuting feminism, and preaching vigorously against feminism.) Although we see the feminists dangerous to ISKCON and Vedic culture, I do not see it is the right time to get in their case so heavily for now. Let us enter with a needle and leave with a plow? Other devotees see it that way too. Those in the middle we educate by distributing what we come with (papers) en-masse. We don't want to be timid in our approach. We have to go for the rhinocirous. If we are too timid then this will give time to reorganize and counterattack from a stronger position. They are bound to counterattack but better if we can weaken their position as much as possible. We can't compromise on the truth. (Text 1742107) --------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------- *As a part of their research, Sita and Jivanmukta forwarding leaked texts from IWC (supposedly given to them by a nameless "spy": Text 1746324 (55 lines) From: Internet: btb@georgian.net Date: 05-Oct-98 14:24 -0400 To: GHQ [190] Subject: IWC text- Srila criticizes Yasomatinandana ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Text 1746682 (43 lines) From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) Date: 05-Oct-98 22:01 +0000 To: GHQ [196] Subject: FYI FWD> From Hridayananda Maharaja ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Date: 04-Oct-98 11:03 To: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) [5532] Subject: FWD> From Hridayananda Maharaja ------------------------------------------------------------ It is because of men like HDG, Bhakti Tirtha Swami, Bir Krsna Swami, and Mukunda Maharaja that the WM has gained ground in ISKCON.... Date: Thu, 8 Jan 98 12:33 +0000 From: "COM: Hari (dd) HDG (Oxford Project)" Sender: Hari.HDG@com.bbt.se Reply-To: Hari.HDG@com.bbt.se, IWC@com.bbt.se To: Karala Cc: "COM: IWC (Internat. Women's Conference)" Subject: From Hridayananda Maharaja Lines: 15 X-Com-Textno: COM1016814 X-Com-Flags: LETTER MIME-Version: 1.0 Status: U [Text 1016814 from COM] Dear Mother Karalapati Devi Dasi, All glories to Srila Prabhupada. I am happy to say again what I have said many times, that the Women's Conference was, for me personally, a powerful, moving, enlightening Krishna conscious experience. The intelligence, eloquence, and above all Krishna consciousness of the ladies was unforgettable and proved, more than any other kind of logic, that the women are right in their basic claim: that Srila Prabhupada fully accepted them in his heart as his beloved daughters and granddaughters, and that by the extraordinary blessing of Srila Prabhupada the women are greatly empowered to spread Krishna consciousness, if they accept that loving mercy of Srila Prabhupada. These are some of my realizations. Hoping you are well, Hridayananda das Goswami (Text COM:1742840) ----------------------------------------- (Text 1746682) - Text 1746950 (5 lines) From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) Date: 06-Oct-98 02:39 +0000 To: GHQ [204] Subject: FYI women are only children of a larger growth ------------------------------------------------------------ "Women, then, are only children of a larger growth: they have an entertaining tattle, and sometimes wit; but for solid, reasoning good-sense, I never knew in my life one that had it, or who reasoned or acted consequentially for four and twenty hours together." Earl of Chesterfield (1694-1773) (Text 1746950) --------------------------------------------- Text 1747980 (65 lines) From: Internet: ameyatma (ACBSP) Date: 06-Oct-98 06:55 -0400 Refernce: Text 1746038 by Bhakti Vikasa Swami To: GHQ [213] Subject: Re: 3 points ------------------------------------------------------------ Dhyanakunda suggests that we take the essence of Srila Prabhupada's instructions and adjust them to modern climes. But modern climes are those of materialism, atheism and impersonalism, manifestations of which are pro-feminism, pro-homosexuality etc. Although Dhyanakunda's ideas may sound very intelligently presented, they amount to an attempt to supplant the instructions of guru sadhu sastra with modern speculations. Then where will be the end to the speculation? Joto mat toto path. The very reason why we need an acarya -- to tell us what to do -- is being undermined at the root. Maharaj, some months back you and I seemed to disagree on this point. It is nice to see that ultimately we both do agree. Previously I had argued against this idea that many put forward, that since Srila Prabhupad was expert at making changes according to time, place and circumstance, then we too must carry on in that spirit. I was opposed to this because this 'excuse' seems to always come up when one talks of marriage of girls at young age (protection of their chastity) or divorce and remarriage, and now with women being leaders. But, you defended the principle offering as an example the program for new bhaktas that gives them the status of pre-initiations and recognition for chanting 4 rounds... etc. All of which has been introduced outside of the direct teachings and examples set by Srila Prabhupad. I disagree with all of it. Any changes. Only Srila Prabhupad was authorized to make such changes, our duty is to follow his teachings, not go on changing ad-infinitum... Lets first become first-class expert at following and implementing what he taught to the letter, that will be to our true glory. It will not be to our glory that 16we think we have become so advanced that we can change what he taught. Anyway, at least we agree when applied to this point of the introduction of radical feminism. Feminism is needed, not radical feminism. I ran into Sudarma at a grocery store last month. She was wearing blue jeans and a T-shirt or some blouse/shirt. Anyway, she dressed like an old hippy. My wife, to my good fortune, always wears sari. She always covers her head in public. Here was the woman in charge of Woman's Ministry, and I mistook her for a karmi hippy from the back. If she were very chaste mataji, maybe I could tolerate more her being in charge of such a ministry, but what is their motive of this ministry? To promote Vedic principles in accordance with Srila Prabhupad's teachings as to the proper role and training for women? To teach chastity and proper 'feminism'. I have heard that Srila Prabhupad say when a woman wears a sari she looks very femine. That is my taste as well. When I see a girl or lady in sari, that is very femine. To see in blue jeans and T-shirt, or around Alachua often in shorts and T-shirt (even some of the Indian mataji's who have become Westernized and support this WM they often wear T-shirt and shorts outside in public). If the ministry were headed by a chaste mataji with all good personal character, and their aim was to promote this, then I would not be opposed. Sudharma has remarried, she has daughters from different husbands. This is acceptable for setting example for others to follow by giving her authority to start an authorized ISKCON Ministry that represents and is forming social standards and policies in ISKCON. Don't the GBC members have anything but Bull Dung for brains ? What were they thinking ? So, possibly we might also want to see, if 100% dismantling the WM may prove too big a fight, what about pushing to have it redefined in accordance with SP teachings, and headed up by a very chaste Indian mataji, one whom anyone can relate to as mataji ? ? --- ys ameyatma das ameyatma@iname.com Chk out my web page at: http://home.earthlink.net/~kgrafx (Text 1747980) --------------------------------------------- Text 1748158 (22 lines) From: Internet: Jivan Mukta Dasa Date: 06-Oct-98 08:21 -0400 Refernce: Text 1747980 by Internet: ameyatma (ACBSP) To: GHQ [219], ameyatma@iname.com Subject: Re: 3 points ------------------------------------------------------------ Don't the GBC members have anything but Bull Dung for brains ? You are being too kind. So, possibly we might also want to see, if 100% dismantling the WM may prove too big a fight, what about pushing to have it redefined in accordance with SP teachings, and headed up by a very chaste Indian mataji, one whom anyone can relate to as mataji ? ? That's a beginning. But regardless of who's involved, it should be under the protection and guidance of the grhastha Ministry. If woman has no independence, how can a group of women have independence? A Prostitute Ministry would also be appropriate considering the current state of affairs. Actually, it could be called Whore Ministry so that the initials can remain the same. In this way those big gun gurus, sannyasis and GBCs who enjoy such association can do so without contaminating our daughters. Ys. JMd (Text 1748158) --------------------------------------------- Text 1750216 (110 lines) From: Internet: Jivan Mukta Dasa Date: 06-Oct-98 16:39 -0400 Refernce: Text 1748069 by Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA) To: GHQ [226] Subject: Re: DIS Jashomatinandana's Reply. ------------------------------------------------------------ Personally, I didn't find anything offensive in there. Likewise. I thought that was an excellent point about electing qualified people to the GBC. Exactly. The GBC men who are not qulaified should shape up of ship out. Frankly, I see a complete disintegration of what we know as Iskcon. These men are too strongly attached to their positions to give them up. Appointing a woman GBC was an indication of their attachment to position and prestige. It should come as no suprise that a devotee like Malati Mataji instead of an exemplary grihastha lady has come on the seat because, traditionally, the feminist movement has a disdain for the family unit. They consider it a hinderance to more honorable pursuits, and likewise so do ISKCON feminists. Not only women but men. I was sickened to see Hari Sauri's response to her pathetic psuedo-humility. Why psuedo? Because if she was truly humble, she would admit that her past disqualifies her from leading anyone. It is men like Hari Sauri that are at the root of our problems. It is men like him that undermine a husband's authority over his wife. Instead of seizing the moment to preach to her and show her the path of dharma, how she should follow her prescribed duty etc. he whimps out and encourages her! Who said this guy is on our side anyway? He is a total embarassment! Women are like children. And in that sense Malati is not fully responsibile for her actions. Nevertheless, it is only a fool or an organization with a death wish that elevates these child-like women into positions of social leadership. His whimpy response almost made me vomit. But it is expected. Most men will never be able to deal with women as they deal with other men. As such they melt whenever there is any semblance of tears or heartbreak. Though natural for a man to act in such a way, this is the very reason why women should never share serious managerial responsibilities with men. But take note how she ends her post. She accuses Jaso of wife abuse. This is typical of the viciousness of women. Visakha did the same thing to me. When her arguements were exposed as deceitful, she sent a private message to her commander (which was inadvertently sent to me) accusing me of beating my wife. How outrageous! But this is typical of women. The sastra warns us of the treacherous heart of a woman. Many of the GBC have become completely bewildered by their charms and have become dancing dogs. Shyness and chastity are the only safety valves and our pathetic bad excuses for men on the GBC, are betraying us and all future generations by their cowardly and despicable policies. Here is a perfect example of such behaviour in our supposed ally Hari Sauri. If this is what we can expect of other *allies* we have got big problems. I am surprised with you Shyamasundara Prabhu. You have been a great catalyst in getting this group organized. Hari Sauri's action is indefensible. Why are you defending his cowardice? Even if Jaos was a little abrasive, (which he wasn't) he was absolutely correct in assessing Malati. She is a disgrace to womanhood. The most glaring stigma is her AIDs disease. How do you think she contacted that? Certainly wasn't by being celibate and drug free. This was all after she took sannyasa from Kirtanananda after being in the movement for 15 years or more. What a disgrace. Then she keeps her saffron cloth and starts her own preaching centre training punk female lib radicals to go out and preach to others of a similar ilk. She doesn't show them what true femininity is because she herself doesn't know. She is a liability to Prabhupada and to our society and we elevate to to a position of leadership. At least the GBC is consistent in their madness. A BTG article about Vallabhacarya once stirred up Sumati Morarji's resentment. Instead of rebuking his disciples, Prabhupada defended them. Even though she found the article distasteful and offensive, Vallabhacarya's infamy is a fact. Prabhupada defended them because they spoke the truth though in private he recommended that they use a little more discretion in the BTG. We likewise should fully support Jaso's statements. They are factually and they were presented without malice. Is it offensive to say the she has Aids? Is it offensive to ask how she got Aids? Do you offer anyone who has Aids, male or female, a position of any significance in this so-called exemplary spiritual movement? Types like Hari Sauri will say that it is offensive. In this way they achieve Orwellian control by the abuse of religious sentiment. Hari Sauri said: "Simply stick with your service (which is far more than many of your detractors)..." I have lost complete faith in Hari Sauri. What a clown. How can he say that she is engaging in more service that her detractors? Maybe it's his experience with disgrace which has softened him up into a sop. The ship called Iskcon is in big trouble with a crew made of such dancing dogs. And don't give me that *respect for senior devotee* bs. Seniority among sudras is based upon age. Seniority among brahmanas is based on learning, sastric proficiency and precept. What are we a bunch of sudras that we show respect to these imbeciles? Excuse my harshness but I, unlike Malati, am not able to feign humility. I feel disgust and revulsion towards such people who introduce the grossed form of materialism in the name of spirituality. They deserve the worst fate. Of course, I may also be missing something he said. What did you find that was unnecessarily offending? I am intrigued as well. Ys. JMd (Text 1750216) --------------------------------------------- Text 1750287 (10 lines) From: Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL - USA) Internet: Guru-Krsna das Date: 03-Oct-98 17:08 -0400 To: GHQ [229] Subject: disclaimer ------------------------------------------------------------ DIS Discussion Draft: Disclaimer Just wanted to say that my letter to Radha dd was sent as an experiment to see whether/how she responds to it. I then forwarded it to DOW. Please note that I did not forward it to GHQ at all (what to speak of umpteen times :) ys, GKd (Text 1750287) --------------------------------------------- Text 1750299 (5 lines) From: Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL - USA) Internet: Guru-Krsna das Date: 05-Oct-98 12:47 -0400 To: GHQ [230] Subject: DIS Payonidhi writes to Mukunda G. ------------------------------------------------------------ As a cell member in cooperation with me, Payo has now written to Mukunda G. a polite letter of inquiry/complaint, especially citing Radha's Draft. (Text 1750299) --------------------------------------------- Text 1750698 (93 lines) From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) Date: 07-Oct-98 02:53 +0000 Refernce: Text 1748069 by Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA) Cc: GHQ [236] Subject: DIS Jashomatinandana's Reply. ------------------------------------------------------------ I am also wondering how being full time engaged in SRila Prabhpada's mission with out any other personal agenda is degrading for a middle aged person in a woman's body? Please forgive any offences that I have undoubtly occurred with this reply. There was no offence in your reply. Simply stick with your service (which is far more than many of your detractors) and your mood of surrender to Srila Prabhupada. You are made glorious by your wonderful preaching and I have no doubt that Srila Prabhupada is very proud of you. Your humble servant, Hari-sauri dasa Though I agreed with several of Jaso's points I don't think it was a good idea to start slinging stuff around like that. How will it be possible to have a cool, level headed, philosophical discussion if tempers are aggravated and feelings hurt. This is not contructive and it is totally against the strategy that we have in place. It is bad enough that some of the women (especially MR) are constantly making obnoxious statements. We should not go to their level. Was it not you who said that if a 1st class man has an argument with a 2nd class man he becomes a 3rd class man? As BVS said. "Let them sling it as much as they like but we have to be more dignified and act like Vaisnavas despite aggravation from the women." Personally, I didn't find anything offensive in there. The only thing that might have been unnecessarily aggravating was the part about his wife lecturing him 3 - 10 times a day. He's got my empathy, and I don't doubt it, but it didn't really have much to do with the rest of his very nicely written shastric reply. (Catching oversights like this is one of the reasons us editors get paid.) I thought that was an excellent point about electing qualified people to the GBC. If you have to have a woman as GBC, why not have someone who has been married, faithful to her husband, good mother, and has shown herself to be a steady devotee? If we demand the same for men, everyone will agree to it, including ISKCON feminists. If we insists on the same standards, they make such a hue and cry. They didn't like this point, and they seem to have difficulty addressing that point. Therefore they are ignoring it or obfuscating the issues in some other fashion. It should come as no suprise that a devotee like Malati Mataji instead of an exemplary grihastha lady has come on the seat because, traditionally, the feminist movement has a disdain for the family unit. They consider it a hinderance to more honorable pursuits, and likewise so do ISKCON feminists. Of course, I may also be missing something he said. What did you find that was unnecessarily offending? Your fallen servant, Krishna-kirti das I didn't think it was offensive at all, but then again I was not on the recieving end. But I thought our strategy was to get papers together and make a presentation to the GBC in a cool headed manner. Note, it is to be made to the GBC not directly to the feminists in cyber street fights who ignore everything and just have name calling temper tantrums and then men like Srutakirti and even HS who is a supporter come to their defense instead of being sympathetic to us. If we write we should do it in such a way that while we don't comprimise our position, yet people who are nuetral will be sympathetic to us. In this case HS who has written that he is sympathetic to us has publicly come to her defense. So it would appear that it perhaps didn't have the effect it was intended to. Another point is that men generally, instinctively come to the defense of a women. So if we are seen as "attacking" a woman then this response is triggered. So somehow we have to present our case without appearing to be "attacking women", let SP do the talking. Then again if some of you think that it is a good idea to engage in cyber street fights I will not oppose it. This may be a good way of increasing the general devotees awareness of the topic. I don't think that Jaso was into name calling or did said anything wrong philosophically I was just concerned with the reaction. Was there any favorable response outside of our group? I guess the main point was that some one who has written that he agrees with us and is against feminism came to her defense. Note also one MR's comments that she took note of the increased number of attacks and now they want to shore up their positions and start a counter offensive of their own. Do we want this? Is it not better to attack an opponent who is lulled into the false security that all is going well as oppossed to the one who is now on a hieghtened state of alert. I would prefer to tackle an opponent who is snoozing rather than one who has me on their cross-hairs. Mine is just one opinion and I do not pretend to be in charge of this operation. Text 1750701 (86 lines) From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) Date: 07-Oct-98 02:53 +0000 Refernce: Text 1750216 by Internet: Jivan Mukta Dasa To: GHQ [238], Jivan Mukta Dasa +0200) Subject: Re: DIS Jashomatinandana's Reply. ------------------------------------------------------------ I am surprised with you Shyamasundara Prabhu. You have been a great catalyst in getting this group organized. Hari Sauri's action is indefensible. Why are you defending his cowardice? In a private letter to JM I have explained some suspicions that I have. I have also explained in a response to Krishna Kirti why such public attacks at this time may not be in our best interest. Since this is a war council it is constructive to bounce such ideas around to get different perspectives. Commanders often have different opinions about strategy and ideas get bounced around and then a decision made. Sruta Kirti's response was predictable, his wife is a member of the "Women's Ministry" but Hari Sauri's was totally unexpected. I didn't feel I was defending Hari Sauri so much as concern with if we were sticking to our planned strategy of presenting soley to the GBC. Now if we want to broaden our strategy to such "bomb throwing" as Jaso did and he is a member of GHQ, then I am not against it. But we should consider the pros and cons first before going in that direction. Pro: Make people aware of the problem and get people of similar views to know that they are not alone. Con: Make the feminists aware that they need to fight harder for what they have gained and thus make our task more difficult to achieve at the GBC meeting because of their hieghted alertness. Note the following statement from MR in response to Jaso's letter: I don't know about the rest of you, but all these recent signs are very disturbing to me. I think it's high time that we organize a response for the Mayapur meetings. We can't let this window of opportunity for some real reform pass us by without including some very strong language re. equal spiritual rights for Vaisnavis. Now, if we don't care about this, then go ahead and throw bombs everywhere in every forum and get people aware of what is going on. But we need to stick to BVS's point about being dignified and sastric. Also if we do plan to throw bombs like that then they should be edited by our word-smiths so that they are most effective in getting the intended response which should be: 1) educate the general devotee that there is a problem regarding feminism in ISKCON 2) that nuetral devotees who recieve it will have a sympathetic reaction. 3) we know that the feminists will come out with critisms of the "bomb" so before sending the "bomb" out we should organize through "cells" devotees all over, not just the same ones over and over again, to vocally respond favorably to those bombs. This will generate more support otherwise it will just fizzle if it is drowned out in a sea of criticism. Just as when the ancient kshatriyas would throw a fire weapon another would throw a water weapon. So we have to counter the criticisms of "bombs" effectively, otherwise they get the last word. If we are going to throw "bombs" then let's do it right and do it effectively. It has to be an orchastrated affair. For example in WWII when bombers were sent on missions they didn't go alone but with fighter escorts. So we must also organize a fighter escort to respond to attacks against our bomber. To do that we need to really start networking among all kinds of devotees on COM to be prepared to step forward and put in their 2 cents when they see our guy get critized. So let's start some networking. I was not sent one favorable reaction to what Jaso wrote only negative ones. Were there any favorable reactions?? A BTG article about Vallabhacarya once stirred up Sumati Morarji's resentment. Instead of rebuking his disciples, Prabhupada defended them. Even though she found the article distasteful and offensive, Vallabhacarya's infamy is a fact. Prabhupada defended them because they spoke the truth though in private he recommended that they use a little more discretion in the BTG. We likewise should fully support Jaso's statements. They are factually and they were presented without malice. Actually I was India about that time. My understanding is that SP personally apologised to her. Basu Ghosh was also there and he had to make many apologies as well. (Text 1750701) --------------------------------------------- Text 1755897 (28 lines) From: Bhakti Vikasa Swami Date: 09-Oct-98 03:29 +0400 To: GHQ [268] Subject: From a letter from Krisna Kirti ------------------------------------------------------------ GHQ seems to be progressing in a haphazard way. To me it seems that because there is no one person, or a few people, who are acknowledged as directing everything, everyone seems to be doing their own thing, including yours truly. Just the recent letter by Jashomatinandan Prabhu about Malati Mataji is a case in point. It was an excellent letter, no doubt, but its public posting may have, as Syamasundar Prabhu pointed out, have reduced our advantage of surprise. Of course, that may just be our illusion. I spoke with my wife a few days ago, and she made a remark about COM, that there was so much gossip on it. I said, "Well, we're all very busy with COM for some important affairs. . ." KK ki patni: "Yes, I know, you all are busy trying to overthrow the ladies. I know all about it." KK: "Tell me more, what do you know. . ." KK ki patni: "O.K., you be busy with overthrowing the ladies. I'm going on Vraj Mandal Parikrama. This year 2/3 of the devotees are ladies. We have better things to do. . ." I think we should appoint the directors of the GHQ project and everyone else should agree to cooperate with them. Even if we don't 100% agree with them, we should still give the directors our 100% cooperation. My nomination would be for Rasananda Maharaj, Syamasundar Prabhu, and Jivan Mukta Prabhu to be the directors, and they have the final say in this affair. Everyone on GHQ should give some sort of pledge or personal assurance to whomever are the elected "concensus candidates". (Text 1755897) --------------------------------------------- Text 1763234 (13 lines) From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) Date: 13-Oct-98 01:05 +0000 To: GHQ [308] Subject: CON Meeting in Atlanta next weekend ------------------------------------------------------------ Just the following from a friend in Atlanta when I queried about going there for the feastival. Govardhan Puja - won't have much time to enjoy. I have Bir Krishna Maharaj, Sudharma, and Radha coming in this weekend for meetings/decisions from Friday through Sunday night. Radha is staying here with me and reviewing all the temple's legal paperwork. I decided to go elsewhere. So it looks like this Radha may be the only creature that looks up to a snake: a lawyer. (Text 1763234) --------------------------------------------- Text 1788961 (25 lines) From: Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL - USA) Internet: Guru-Krsna das Date: 21-Oct-98 12:19 -0400 To: GHQ [394] Subject: DIS GBC Standards/M Sudharma ------------------------------------------------------------ I posted a section from the ISKCON Law Book on GBC Member Standards. It came to my mind that Mother Sudharma has been in flagrant neglect of these standards for the entire 4 years that I have resided in the Alachua community--and I do not exaggerate. She is rarely seen at the morning program. Mother Sudharma does "live in or near a Krsna conscious temple community" but here residing on land contiguous to New Raman Reti apparently is NOT "so as to regularly, participate in devotional activities and associate with devotees." She does NOT "follow daily *sadhana* and full morning program, demonstrably chant sixteen rounds,...regularly give classes, and participate in...*harinama* parties. (92) Naveen Krsna Prabhu also DOES NOT participate in *harinama* parties. Especially with regard to M Sudharma, it seems that GHQ has every good reason to petition the GBC to take the appropriate action for her rectification or suspension (or whatever). Of course we might also wonder why the GBC Body is either unaware of or unconcerned about her substandard spiritual condition. [I will research the Law Book to find the appropriate measures to be taken towards Members who are not up to standard] ys, GKd (Text 1788961) --------------------------------------------- Text 1792041 (19 lines) From: Trivikrama Swami Date: 22-Oct-98 20:29 +0200 Refernce: Text 1790043 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) To: GHQ [406], Jivan Mukta Dasa +0200) Subject: DIS Trivikram Swami ------------------------------------------------------------ Thank you all for your warm welcome. Shyamasundar prabhu asked me for my imput on devising a strategy. Two ideas come to mind. 1. We "shoot for the rhinoceros", make an all out attempt to remove Mother Malati, try to get a law passed that no women can ever have a managerial position in ISKCON etc. 2. We accept a principle given by Chairman Mao, "Don't fight unless you can win." That is we pick our fights carefully making sure that we have a solid chance of winning, then proceed to our next campaign, again giving serious consideration as to where our limit resources will be the most effective. (For instance make a strong effort to get Mother Sudharma removed because of no sadhana) I guess I like number two better, but number one also has some elements that can make it very effective. Of course this is not an all inclusive list, anyone have a number three? Ys TS (Text 1792041) --------------------------------------------- Text 1803285 (19 lines) From: Vidvan Gauranga (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN) Date: 27-Oct-98 20:50 +0530 Refernce: Text 1765047 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) To: GHQ [427], Jivan Mukta Dasa +0100) Subject: Prabhupada as Pramana (writing tactic) ------------------------------------------------------------ [Either here or before we start to make our presentation we have to establish what are the pramanas that shall be used. That is guru sadhu and sastra. It is well-known that the feminists deplore sastra especially Manu samhita or any other sastra which does not support their position. So we must show that bhakti without sastra simply a disturbance. Another point is that these feminists make it seem like even if the sastra does not permit, Prabhupada permits. Their ultimate pramana is PRabhupada. That is my experience in dealing with the feminists. So what we have to do is to play the same game. We are ONLY interested in the Manu Samhita because PRABHUPADA adamantly insisted that on this point of women being dependent/independent, he quotes Manu Samhita. We have surrendered ourselves to Prabhupada who is our life and soul. PRABHUPADA orders us to follow specific codes of conduct for men and women. And we have to do it because PRABHUPADA wants it like that. We cannot tolerate anyone who goes against PRABHUPADA. yhs vgd (Text 1803285) --------------------------------------------- Text 1803291 (9 lines) From: Vidvan Gauranga (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN) Date: 27-Oct-98 20:50 +0530 Refernce: Text 1761888 by Internet: Jivan Mukta Dasa To: GHQ [432], Jivan Mukta Dasa +0100) Subject: Re: FYI Re: Some observations ------------------------------------------------------------ I think we should be careful about our language in dealing with feminists, pro-feminists, and feminist-sympathizers. Just as we are not using the term feminazis, etc., we shouldn't also use the terms kali-celas etc. Also if we have the habit of criticizing the GBCs then inadvertantly we might blow it out to someone and that might become a problem. So better we be cautious. yhs vgd (Text 1803291) --------------------------------------------- Text 1803372 (6 lines) From: Vidvan Gauranga (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN) Date: 27-Oct-98 21:10 +0530 Refernce: Text 1746951 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College - USA) To: GHQ [443] Subject: FYI serious matters ------------------------------------------------------------ "A man of sense only trifles with them [women], plays with them, humors and flatters them, as he does with a sprightly and forward child; but he neither consults them about, nor trusts them with, serious matters."Earl of Chesterfield Good stuff. Bhaktividya Purna Maharaja told me the same thing. (Text 1803372) --------------------------------------------- Text 1816164 (19 lines) From: Vidvan Gauranga (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN) Date: 01-Nov-98 08:32 +0530 Refernce: Text 1816025 by Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL - USA) Cc: GHQ [536] Subject: reply ------------------------------------------------------------ Are you planning to write a reply to M Pranada or Sudharma? I don't think you have to worry about whether anyone thinks you're a chauvinist or not. Why be intimidated by what some middle-aged, discontented, (apparently) not-so-Krsna conscious *matajis* think about you? Let your own consciousness speak for itself according to your cultured upbringing and your present state of realized transcendental knowledge. No I am not afraid of being intimidated. I am just playing the same game they are playing. They try to get support by saying "Ah! we are called feminazis!" etc. So I am also crying out, "Ah! I am called a woman-hater! Ah!" hi hi hi When you fight, you have to use the same kind of weaponry that the opponent uses. The only lady who writes thoughtfully seems to be Radha dd, though of course, she is wrong in her conclusions, etc. But only she posses that written sobriety that I can respect. I wrote an elaborate response to her and am cc'ing it to DOW. yhs vgd (Text 1816164) --------------------------------------------- Text 1816093 (11 lines) From: Vidvan Gauranga (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN) Date: 01-Nov-98 07:33 +0530 Refernce: Text 1812199 by Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL - USA) Cc: GHQ [533] Subject: DIS MR ------------------------------------------------------------ Also, I was assuming that your expressed faith (in two letters) that IWM is doing something to stop feminist preaching is also diplomatic. Kindly comment on this for us on GHQ. Thank you, prabhu. Of course. I have to say like that because only then will they start listening to us. Otherwise, they will turn a deaf ear to us, even if we speak in accordance with Prabhupada, Sadhu and Sastra. They are women, so you have to be emotional, sensitive and diplomatic with them. To NOT do so, I opine, is not strategic. yhs vgd (Text 1816093) --------------------------------------------- Text 1809269 (163 lines) From: Rasananda Swami (USA) Date: 29-Oct-98 06:36 -0800 To: GHQ [515] Cc: Braj Hari (das) JPS (Juhu, Mumbai - IN) [1856] (received: 30-Oct-98 13:29 +0530) Scc: Srivallabha (das) JPS (Persian Gulf) [254] (forwarded: 29-Oct-98 15:40 +0100) Subject: Women in Leadership & position of ISKCON Women's Ministry ------------------------------------------------------------ It seems the Women Ministry is feeling some disturbance by the viewpoint "of a small group of men" as mother Sudharma points out. I would say that would be very strong and would fortify our viewpoint if all of us comment on her letter. I am sure we will get some allies. --------------------------------------------- Text 1808977 (24 lines) From: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA) Date: 29-Oct-98 12:37 +0000 Refernce: Text 1807693 by Vidvan Gauranga (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN) To: GHQ [514] Subject: FLS Vaccination of the local devotees in Mayapur from Feminism started ------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Vidvan Guaranga Prabhu, please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupad. I think this is very much needed and that I should routinely innoculate the local innocent Bengali devotees from this poisonous feminism. I think your work will be most effective if you strictly avoid English in this regard. If you speak in English (even among Indians), or especially if you write anything in English, the local Angreji Mahilaem will very quickly come to know of what you are doing and very strongly move to censure you. One of the few things that Gandhi did that was actually beneficial for India was his refusal to allow English the status of a national language (which is to this day what many South Indians--Tamilians in particular--want: English as a national language). The effect of making Hindi the Rashtriya Bhasa was that in the post-British dominion it has retarded the further infiltration of Western thinking into Indian society. I feel this same principle can also work to your benefit. I'm assuming that you are pretty much targeting only the resident Indians in Mayapur. These are just my un-humble suggestions. Your servant, Krishna-kirti das (Text 1808977) --------------------------------------------- Text 1808829 (17 lines) From: Jaya Tirtha Charan (das) JPS Internet: John Marshall / Jaya Tirtha Charan Dasa Date: 29-Oct-98 19:12 +1300 Refernce: Text 1807937 by Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL - USA) To: GHQ [513] Cc: Jivan Mukta Dasa Subject: Re: DIS Abuse of men ------------------------------------------------------------ At 22:06 28/10/98 -0500, you wrote: [Text 1807937 from COM] JMP posted a very thorough and convincing list of typical ways in which Western women abuse their husbands and children. Since ABUSE is the magic word for the feminists, it seems only fair that we propagate far and wide the very real cases of husband abuse. In fact, if we are actually more intelligent than women, we should be able to produce a longer list than they do. ys, GKd prabhu, could you send me that list, I don't seem to have it. (Text 1808829) --------------------------------------------- Text 1807912 (33 lines) From: Vidvan Gauranga (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN) Date: 29-Oct-98 08:26 +0530 Refernce: Text 1807816 by Internet: Jivan Mukta Dasa To: GHQ [503], Jivan Mukta Dasa +0100) Subject: Re: DIS: Continuing with 3rd Point Of Action ------------------------------------------------------------ My concern is that we're playing into their hands. We can make the same complaint about women. If we give these complaints too much credibility, we will actually be admitting that there is widespread onesided abuse by men against women. I refuse to believe that based on 20 years in ISKCON. It is not one-sided and it must presented as a mutually created and mutually solvable problem. This is true. I agree with your concern. But the point is to FIRST win their favor. Just as BSST did with the brahmanas and vaishnavas. He first started reading out all the glories of brahmanas and their previleges. At that time, the brahmanas were very happy. He won their favor adn also the neutral judges' opinion because he wasn't just getting on their case. Then he discussed what a brahmana means in reality. It means qualified brahmanas. And what vaishnava means and that the vaishnavas are above the qualified brahmanas. So similarly to make them feel heard (which they keep on claiming no one has done as of now), let us first put in all their complaints, rational and irrational, sastric and non sastric, all kinds of stuff. Then we deal with each complaint based on Prabhupada, Sadhu and Sastra. Our strength is in sticking to Prabhupada, Sadhu and Sastra. Prabhupada himself said, "Put me problems. I will solve." In part two anyway, we are dealing with feminism in theory and practice within ISKCON. We shoudl have a part three which is conclusion. That puts the whole thing into perspective. What doest thou say now? Or will it be counter-productive? yhs vgd (Text 1807912) --------------------------------------------- Text 1823126 (33 lines) From: Internet: Jivan Mukta Dasa Date: 03-Nov-98 14:00 -0500 Refernce: Text 1822565 by Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA) To: GHQ [546] Cc: ameyatma (ACBSP) +0100) (sender: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)) Subject: Re: Web Site ------------------------------------------------------------ Before, I had said this in the organizational discussions for the new Dharma of Men and Women conference: a Website for the DMW (formerly Dharma of Women) would go a long ways towards making our discussion reach more people. Ameyatma Prabhu, Basu Gosh Prabhu has suggested the possibility of using your current Web Site for this purpose. What do you think? Let's face the facts: The opinions of many leaders is in favour of the equal rights garbage promoted by the IWC, and it seems the COM gods favour it (and consequently barely tolerate us) too. Prabhupada's strategy was to find the sore spot of your opponent and then keep pressing until they die. We must find that sore spot and keep pressing until they are completely defeated. That sore spot is Prabhupada's collective teachings on the folly of equal rights and ISKCON's role as a cultural movement. Just a thought: If this is a secret conference, and the COM gods are against what we are doing, Are they really against us? Have you received any indications from anyone about this? It may be worthwhile moving GHQ off of COM and somewhere else if possible. I agree. We should also exchange e-mail addresses (as opposed to COM addresses) just in case anything happens to COM. YS. JMd (Text 1823126) --------------------------------------------- Text 1826760 (51 lines) From: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA) Date: 05-Nov-98 01:33 +0000 To: GHQ [559] Subject: DIS Web Site: Proposal ------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Maharajs, Prabhus, and Matajis (yes, we do have an exceptional member), please accept my humble obeisances at your lotus feet. All glories to ISKCON Founder-Acharya Srila Prabhupad. As a follow-up to the recent discussion on having a Web Site, I would like to make the following proposal as to the Web Site's purpose (with a view to accomplishing our main and secondary objectives) and some suggested features: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Purpose of the GHQ (not its name) Web Site Main: To provide devotees with information on the un-watered-down Vedic standard of manly and womanly behaviour. Secondary: To simultaneously provide the above information with a view towards educating the non-devotional public (in otherwords, make it into something for preaching). This can also be beneficial to devotees because we are fighting non-devotional tendencies that bias one towards a co-ed view of equality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Suggested Features Sita-Rama: The Perfect Couple How I Saved My Marriage Prabhupad Speaks Out (a perennial favorite) Questions & Answers (our answers, of course) Divorce Statistics (gathered from secular sources) The Failure of the Women's Rights Movement (A KC analysis of different prominent, feminist thinkers) Current Events (Prez Clinton, Patricia Ireland and Whoopie!) Links to other sites of interest. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Suggestions Use spaming techniques such as embedding the words VNN, Vaishnav News Network, Sex, Chakra, Co-Ed, etc. in the HTML so that readers of VNN or Chakra will also stumble accross our site if they perform a Web Search. Your servant, Krishna-kirti das (Text 1826760) --------------------------------------------- Text 1829676 (32 lines) From: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) Date: 06-Nov-98 07:17 +0530 To: GHQ [570] Subject: Radha dd - attorney at law :-) ------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Jivan Mukta Prabhu, Namonamaha. Jaya Srila Prabhupada! As you can see from her reply to a message you sent her, she is "bowing out" of the discussion. IMHO you could have stated your views (which are of course 100% correct) in such a way as to have continued the dialogue. BTW H.H. Bhakti Vikas Maharaj "now" feels that there is going to have to be some kind of a "meeting point" between the 2 sides. One thing is for sure: even I can't claim to be living a 100% "vedic" lifestyle". I'm not writing this at all in a mood of "capitulation", but wouldn't it be better if we could bring around these "errant" thinkers as opposed to alienating them? It will take real finese to do that. Seems like Vidvan G. is the one with that here. No offence, but even I'm too heavy for them. Well, I've written this in a mood of brainstorming: what do the others here, including yourself, feel? Regarding the Web page: maybe KK should speak to Ameyatma Prabhu on the phone to finalize details (at least to make some tangible progress in that area). Yes, it would go a long way towards propagating a more conservative line of thought. dasabhas, Basu Ghosh Das (Text 1829676) --------------------------------------------- Text 1831211 (18 lines) From: Internet: Sita Devi Dasi Date: 06-Nov-98 10:32 -0500 Refernce: Text 1830752 by Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA) To: GHQ [582] Subject: Re: Mukhya's response ------------------------------------------------------------ What was the use? Everyone's seen the text already. It's a start. The WM knows know their text was removed for the very reason that it was *offensive*. The fact Mukhya removed will be a bit of jab in the side for them. I am going to write privately to Radha in response to her message to my husband yesterday and see if we can patch things up a bit. We will forward it to the GHQ. Generally speaking, though, we feel it is a waste of time to continue this dialogue with the WM. We feel we should return to the original strategy of appealing to the GBC. THEY are the ones who are responsible for the WM, including approving the philosophical integrity of any papers they circulate. If we succeed in getting to GBC to take some action, it will be a great victory. Ys, Sdd (Text 1831211) ---------------------------------------------
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