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USA June 25, 1999 VNN4159 See Related VNN Stories | Comment on this story Srila Prabhupada ISKCON Siksa Guru For 100,000 Years BY ISA DAS USA, Jun 25 (VNN) — Hare Krsna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada! Please accept my humble obeisances My Dear Godbrothers and Godsisters and other transcendental relatives! His Divine Grace Srila Narayana Maharaja, gave the following talk after a morning walk in Alachua, Florida. During the walk I had been discussing Ritvik points of view with him. Maharaja was deeply understanding the pain of many Srila Prabhupada's disciples and expressed his desires to help us. I made the comment that Srila Prabhupada's actual position, as opposed to the Ritvik point of view, was that of Siksa Guru of ISKCON for the next 100,000 years and longer! He agreed with my conclusion and asked me to communicate this to my ISKCON family. After the morning walk he gave the following class to explain these points more completely. Your Servant, Isa das isadas@equalsouls.org http://www.equalsouls.org (Jews come from a Vedic root) Guru-Nistha 18 June 1999 (am) Alachua, FL, USA You know that guru-nistha. Guru-nistha is the backbone, life and soul of Krsna-bhakti. When we do nama to Krsna, first [we do] to guru. If we do anything we begin from guru. So if [there is] no guru, [then] no bhakti, no happiness, nothing. In Caitanya-caritamrta, in Srimad-Bhagavatam, in Vedas, in Upanisads, everywhere, our first prayer is to guru and then we begin. Without guru-nistha, your everything is like zero. So Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami has also given done [written] it. Mantra-guru, siksa guru, vartma-pradarsaka-guru, caitya-guru, there are so many kinds of guru. 'Mantra-guru ara yata siksa-guru-gana,' First Chapter Adi, 35. mantra-guru ara yata siksa-guru-gana tanhara carana age kariye vandana (Cc Adi 1.35) ["I first offer my respectful obeisances at the lotus feet of my initiating spiritual master and all my instructing spiritual masters." (BBT)] 'Tanhara carana age kariye vandana mantra guru.' Who gives mantra is diksa-guru. Ara yata siksa-guru-gana, there is siksa-guru and all [Vaisnavas] are siksa-gurus who are giving bhajana-siksa, who are giving the glories of devotion. [So there are different types of guru:] diksa-guru, siksa guru who gives Krsna-tattva and all other things, then bhajana-guru, and also caitya-guru. Krsna Himself is caitya-guru. And then He becomes mahanta-guru. Who is mahanta-guru? Mantra-data, he who gives mantra. And he who gives inspiration is caitya-guru. We can see that Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Rupa Gosvami, all chaya, six Gosvamis, they are siksa-guru. Radha, Krsna, Lalita, Visakha, Rupa-manjari, Rati-manjari, all are like siksa-guru. Mantra-guru [is only] one. And all [others] are siksa-guru. So we have provision of so many siksa-gurus here. All are like guru, all guru, manifestation of one Baladeva Prabhu or Nityananda Prabhu. We have provision of oh, so many gurus. You can see that in Vedas, Upanisads, anywhere, rtvik guru system is not given, that [there is] any rtvik-guru. Never. It has been introduced only for some years, and this guru-parampara is eternal. It is existing from the first Satya-yuga. And which is the first satya-yuga? We cannot know. [Yugas are an eternal cycle] From there guru-parampara is coming, so we should try to obey our sastra. A guru who is not following sastra, he's actually not guru. Why? Because the sastra has been introduced or manifested by Krsna Himself. Veda comes from the breathing of Krsna, Gita from Krsna's own mouth, Srimad-Bhagavatam coming in the trance of Vyasadeva. But from where trance [is coming]? From Krsna Himself, Krsna appeared in his trance. So a guru is guru when he's following the instructions of all the sastra, then he's guru. And he will tell the deep meanings of the Veda, Upanisad, sastra. But if his activities are against sastra, then he's not guru. tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreya uttamam sabde pare ca nisnatam brahmany upasamasrayam (SB 11.3.21) ["Any person who is seriously desirous of achieving real happiness must seek out a bona fide spiritual master and take shelter of him by initiation. The qualification of a spiritual master is that he must have realized the conclusion of the scriptures by deliberation and arguments and thus be able to convince others of these conclusions. Such great personalities, who have taken complete shelter of the Supreme Godhead, leaving aside all material considerations, are to be understood as bona fide spiritual masters." (BBT)] Here what is the meaning of sabda? Veda, Upanisad, sastra, guru-parampara. Those who have accepted sastra by hearing from our guru-parampara this is sabde sastra, not anything else. If he's not accepting sastra, sabda-brahma, then actually he's not guru. 'Sabde pare ca,' here 'pare ca' meaning Krsna Himself, para-brahma. Sabda-brahma and para-brahma. He should be 'nisnatam,' he should be realized in both things. If he's not following sastra, and he is not realized in Krsna consciousness, then actually he's not guru. Then third, oh, he will be detached from worldly desires and worldly attachment. If he's not so [detached], he's actually not guru. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has told Himself in Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya 8.128): kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya yei krsna-tattva-vetta, sei 'guru' haya ["Whether one is a brahmana, a sannyasi or a sudra-regardless of what he is-he can become a spiritual master if he knows the science of Krsna." (BBT)] What is the meaning? It has not been told anywhere that 'he should only be the disciple of my gurudeva.' Anywhere this is not written. Has it been written anywhere? Haridasa Thakura even he was Muslim, he had no [diksa] guru, nothing, but he accepted Caitanya Mahaprabhu as guru [and] Advaita Acarya like a guru. So we should know without guru, without mantra-guru, without diksa-guru, a sisya cannot go on. Especially in Gita it has been told. What? tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah (Gita 4.32) ["Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth." (BBT)] If you are telling that, oh, rtvik. Then how you will inquire? If you are telling that by tapes, then can you inquire anything from tapes? What? [BN]: No answer. [BVNM]: No answer at all, nirjiva, no life. If you will question anything, if when you have doubt, it [tapes] cannot answer. Rtvik system is only for periodical fire sacrifices for attaining any worldly desire. And when it is finished, no relation with them [ie between the rtvik priest and the person who hired the rtvik for the performance of sacrifice]. Just it [rtvik-guru idea] came for only two, three, four years, and this guru-parampara is eternal. So we should try to honor guru-parampara. Who made your gurudeva, Swami Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada, acarya? That, "You should go and give name to others, and to give mantra diksa to them." Who made? Can you say? Who told, ordered Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Thakura that, "You are acarya after me, and you should initiate." Did anyone tell? Who told Narada that, "You should initiate?" Never anyone. Who told to Madhvacarya, Ramanuja? Those who will serve their gurudevas, practice bhakti-yoga, follow their guru, and when they will be qualified they are acarya. Then they will know by the grace of their guru, siksa-guru and others, by sastra, tattva-jnana they will know, then he will be guru, he can initiate. That is why no one told Swamiji [to become acarya.] Before his sannyasa, no one knew him, never. Very few disciples of Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, knew him somewhat. They thought that he's a family person, devotee, like ordinary. And when he took sannyasa in Mathura, from any bona fide guru, Srila Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, then whole world knew, and quickly he went over whole world. We try to follow this parampara. If you are not following parampara then you are disobeying your gurudeva. Without mantra diksa anyone is not even Vaisnava, no devotee at all. A regulation and rule made by worldly person, fallen person, having no Krsna-tattva, and on the other hand any rule, regulation, made by Krsna Himself, by all the advanced devotees, realized devotees like Narada, Vyasa, Sukadeva. Which is preferable? Which? Which one, this parampara, guru-parampara or this bogus [idea] should we accept? This [rtvik guru idea] is for cheating only. So if you want to please your gurudeva, my humble request is that you follow him, your gurudeva. He followed guru-parampara from Brahma to his gurudeva, and he has showed this example that we should follow guru-parampara. Without this you cannot come in the line. It has been told that those who are not initiated personally by any gurudeva, we should not take water from their hands. Do you know this? If you are taking then what it is? It is like urine. And if anything you are taking, that is like stool. We should not take it. In India we [all devotees] never take anything from those who are not really initiated. So we should be in the line of Swamiji, and we should try to know all these things. So it has been told, our guru-parampara is so vibhu. Vyapaka means everything is very broad. So we must honor and respect to guru-parampara. We should take 'kiba vipra, kiba nyasi,' even 'sudra kene naya, yei krsna-tattva-vetta, sei 'guru' haya.' First we can see like bhajana-siksa-guru, vartma-pradarsaka-guru. Vartma-pradarsaka-guru means one who shows the way, path. And then caitya-guru. If you will be very sincere, oh, he will give knowledge, dadami buddhi-yogam tam [Gita 10.10]. So Krsna is first guru. So why we are not taking shelter of all these gurus [diksa-guru, siksa-guru, caitya-guru etc]. So we should try to come in this line and praying very humbly. Some think that, "Oh, all gurus are going to fall down. They are falling down, falling down." Actually they were not guru, those who are falling down. Only he inspired something, your gurudeva inspired something, that they should be given some inspiration to do bhajana. That is why he gave the instruction that, "Go on doing [preaching]." A sukrti may come, and thus you will develop in Krsna consciousness. That is why he's telling: sri-rupa, sanatana, bhatta-raghunatha sri-jiva, gopala-bhatta, dasa-raghunatha ei chaya guru--siksa-guru ye amara tan'-sabara pada-padme koti namaskara (Cc Adi 1.36,37) Go on. [PP reads translation]: My instructing spiritual masters are Sri Rupa Gosvami, Sri Sanatana Gosvami, Sri Bhatta Raghunatha, Sri Jiva Gosvami, Sri Gopala Bhatta Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. This six Gosvamis are my instructing spiritual masters, and therefore I offer millions of respectful obeisances unto their lotus feet. [BVNM]: He has also told 'mantra-guru ara yata siksa-guru-gana.' Go on. [PP reads translation]: I first offer my respectful obeisances at the lotus feet of my initiating spiritual master and all my instructing spiritual masters. [BVNM]: No purport? [Devotee]: Yes, very long. [BVNM]: You should read the purport. [PP]: Purport by Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada - Srila Jiva Gosvami, in his thesis Bhakti-sandarbha (202), has stated that uncontaminated devotional service is the objective of pure Vaisnavas and that one has to execute such service in the association of other devotees. By associating with devotees of Lord Krsna, one develops a sense of Krsna consciousness and thus becomes inclined toward the loving service of the Lord. This is the process of approaching the Supreme Lord by gradual appreciation in devotional service. If one desires unalloyed devotional service, one must associate with devotees of Sri Krsna, for by such association only can a conditioned soul achieve a taste for transcendental love and thus revive his eternal relationship with Godhead in a specific manifestation and in terms of the specific transcendental mellow (rasa) that one has eternally inherent in him. If one develops love for Krsna by Krsna conscious activities, one can know the Supreme Absolute Truth, but he who tries to understand God simply by logical arguments will not succeed, nor will he get a taste for unalloyed devotion. The secret is that one must submissively listen to those who know perfectly the science of God, and one must begin the mode of service regulated by the preceptor. A devotee already attracted by the name, form, qualities, etc., of the Supreme Lord may be directed to his specific manner of devotional service; he need not waste time in approaching the Lord through logic. The expert spiritual master knows well how to engage his disciple's energy in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and thus he engages a devotee in a specific devotional service according to his special tendency. A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden. There is no limit, however, to th! e number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept. Generally a spiritual master who constantly instructs a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on. One should always remember that a person who is reluctant to accept a spiritual master and be initiated is sure to be baffled in his endeavor to go back to Godhead. [BVNM]: What is the meaning of baffled? [PP]: It means one is reluctant to accept a guru, he holds back and does not approach a spiritual master, then all of his endeavors to realize Krsna and go back home, back to Godhead, will be frustrated and he will become confused and derail from the path. [BVNM]: Ah. Go on. [PP continues reading purport]: One who is not properly initiated may present himself as a great devotee, but in fact he is sure to encounter many stumbling blocks on his path of progress toward spiritual realization, with the result that he must continue his term of material existence without relief. [note - Maharaja intervenes to give an explanation, and then time runs out as everyone has to leave in time to go to Guru-puja at the local ISKCON temple. So I've included the rest of the purport here in quotation marks: "Such a helpless person is compared to a ship without a rudder, for such a ship can never reach its destination. It is imperative, therefore, that one accept a spiritual master if he at all desires to gain the favor of the Lord. The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master's instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple. If one thinks that he is above consulting anyone else, including a spiritual master, he is at once an offender at the lotus feet of the Lord. Such an offender can never go back to Godhead. It is imperative that a serious person accept a bona fide spiritual master in terms of the sastric injunctions. Sri Jiva Gosvami advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary s! ocial and ecclesiastical conventions. One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding."] [BVNM]: Here 'devotee' means present, he is present in life. I'm explaining that that class of devotee we should accept as an initiation guru. And if you are not doing then he's telling that everything is like a zero. So we must try to follow. But a guru should be living. Now if anyone is thinking that Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja Prabhupada, "I'm accepting him like initiation guru." But actually he will be siksa-guru, not initiation guru. He should be a living guru, living in this world, otherwise he will be siksa-guru. Now your Prabhupada for anyone now he becomes like siksa-guru. And to whom he has initiated himself, he is their diksa guru. And for others, for generations from here if they will go for 100 or 1000 years in this line, they may think him as siksa-guru. Siksa-guru is not less than diksa-guru. Sometimes siksa-guru is more higher than diksa-guru. If you think that Krsna or Caitanya Mahaprabhu are our siksa-guru, then who wil be superior? Your diksa-guru or Krsna and Caitanya Mahaprabhu who are siksa-guru. Siksa-guru [will be higher.] So don't think that siksa-guru is less than diksa-guru, never. He [Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami] has not told the name of his diksa-guru, mantra-diksa-guru, but he has told vividly what? sri-rupa, sanatana, bhatta-raghunatha sri-jiva, gopala-bhatta, dasa-raghunatha (Cc Adi 1.36) They are my siksa-guru. And always he's writing [at the end of each chapter] 'sri-rupa-raghunatha-pade yara asa caitanya-caritamrta kahe krsnadasa.' Always Rupa-Raghunatha. Where is mantra-guru here? So he has given preference to siksa-guru here. But if diksa-guru is so high level, for Jiva Gosvami who? [Devotees]: Rupa Gosvamipada. [BVNM]: Rupa Gosvami directly. So we should try to understand. Now time is over, and we should go there [to ISKCON] and we should offer respect and offer flowers there, and then we will come and here and you [one devotee] should make classes, and in evening I will speak again. Gaura-premanande! [Devotees]: Haribol! [note - after this, all devotees with Maharaja went to the local ISKCON temple for guru-puja.] Related VNN Stories | Comment on this story | Contact VNN about this story | Send this story to a friend
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