From a tape found in Isa Prabhu’s archives: he served as Satsvarupa Maharaja’s secretary in 1977-78.

TKG — My duties as Srila Prabhupada’s secretary were to assist in any way that I could, and to further His mood whatever that happened to be. Of course the ?noble? activities of replying to Srila Prabhupada’s correspondence … except in very rare occasions Srila Prabhupada would have me reply to letters on his behalf. There were a few letters which he dictated, but even these he had me sign on his behalf. He gave me instruction that now it was time to increase the letters coming from his secretary and to decrease the letters coming from he himself. And of course in the last one or two months, the reading of mail to Prabhupada became a matter of simply trying to give him pleasure rather than to inform him of the affairs of the society.

This means that there was a necessity on my part to, uhm, discriminate over which letters should be read to him and even over which parts of the letters were read to him. Only good news was read to him. Apart from his correspondence, the secretary had to handle all of the various accounts which Srila Prabhupada was personally responsible for. Accounts, bank accounts, both in his personal name as well as in the name of the Mayapur Vrindaban Fund and other ?funds? of ISKCON.

But perhaps the most important service or activity, and in fact that which predominated the most towards the end of Srila Prabhupada’s appearance, was to simply give him, ah, some, ah, submissive company, to be with him. He liked to have a ??? of disciples surrounding him, and naturally he wanted his secretary to be there and to talk with him, to massage his body, and as a regular function, in fact, it was my duty to be to bathe and dress him every morning also. And he liked that I should have the morning shift at taking care of him, from about five o’clock in the morning till about nine o’clock in the morning, so that when he woke up his secretary would be there. ?He would have? him sit him up and rub or scratch his back, and ??? talk about what he’d been thinking of ????during the day????. Also he wanted his secretary to act more or less as the chief nurse… I wouldn’t say chief nurse, that’s not the right word. In terms of Prabhupada’s medicines he would always have his secretary give his final conclusive opinion over what steps he should take and what treatments he should take. I think these were more or less the duties of the secretary.

SDG — The real reason I asked that is to establish that you were in an intimate position with Prabhupada. Because most devotees they’ve only seen Prabhupada, I think we could say, most only seen him giving lecture on the vyasasana, and that thousands of people who are interested in his books and have never seen him… So by asking you certain questions I thought that we could get a glimpse more, for people in general, of what Prabhupada is really like. See, ??It’s the idea that, this would be very nice, if we could have ah, if you can ah, let people know little more of what Prabhupada was like. And I have one general question about this. Well this is maybe too general but, what do you think that you learned about him by such contact? I have more specific questions, but the idea is if you can help us to know Prabhupada better, those who never knew him, what he was really like. So um, like, what kind of thing pleased Prabhupada the most, typically?

TKG — The thing that pleased Prabhupad the most was the devotees’ willingness to serve Krishna. ?????? the willingness of someone to engage in the service of Krishna. And he would simply look for that quality within the person. No matter how hidden that quality was, if there was even the slightest spark, he liked that person. And he would encourage that person. Sometimes he could not even see the spark of Krishna Consciousness within someone, and we would want to not allow the person to contact Prabhupada or to talk with Prabhupada, yet somehow Srila Prabhupada would push us aside and bring the person close and start to engage him, one on one???, revealing his Krishna Consciousness. In fact, Prabhupada’s greatness was such that even when the person practically had no Krishna Consciousness somehow he would make him favorable at least to our Krishna Consciousness movement, if not actually engaging in service.

SDG — That’s good. On the other hand, did you ever see Prabhupada angry, and if so, what kind of thing makes him angry?

TKG — ???I saw a disciple of Prabhupada…? That a disciple would disobey the orders of the spiritual master. Sometimes Prabhupada would become very angry at that person. You have to understand, this was not a question of his trying to dominate over someone, but because the person was losing his spritual standing, and therefore out of love for that person Srila Prabhupada would become angry. Apart from that, Prabhupada would not very often become angry in the last few years at nondevotees. Basically Prabhupada’s discussions and acitivites in the past two or three years centered mostly on his disciples. In the early years when he was in America and Europe, he had to preach to anyone and everyone to make disciples, but in the last few years he concentrated on his disciples. So in the early years we used to see Srila Prabhupada become angry at the common people who were just attending his lectures, etc., because these common people were all potential devotees that we had to defeat to ?renounce? his philosophy and arguments. So he would become angry, but then again the anger was simply a anger of a beneficial nature, and a compassionate nature, just as sometimes the father and mother becomes angry at the only child because the child is doing something which will hurt it. That anger is actually ??????

SDG — The first talk you gave after Prabhupada’s disappearance you described Prabhupada as a beautiful devotee. Would you elaborate on that?

TKG — Beautiful devotee means that, in fact you ask me curiously ?????? how did you see Prabhupada or something like that?

SDG — Yeah right.

TKG — So ah, I have to say that if someone wanted to understand what Prabhupada was like, then they should read the Krishna Book or the Nectar of Devotion, and read about the intimate devotees, the associates of Krishna. Actually Prabhupada manifested all the qualities of the eternal associates of Krishna. His union??? was completely sublime, his compassion was sublime and transcendental, his courage, his competitiveness, all of the qualities which we read about in the Krishna Book and the Nectar of Devotion belonging to associates of Krishna, we saw manifested in Srila Prabhupada. He was the living embodiment of Krishna, he was Krishna’s representative. We learned about Krishna by seeing Prabhupada. And you could learn, we learned about to believe in Krishna by seeing Prabhupada, because we could see that he was a person who had come from the spiritual world to be amongst us. So being a beautiful devotee means that you are a devotee ??that is most beautiful. Prabhupada says in the entire one of his chapters "Wonderful Krishna," so I’m ????saying "wonderful Prabhupada." Everything he did was wonderful, everything. All of the different qualities which are present in …????… wonderful degree in Prabhupada.

SDG — You’ve seen so many things it’s hard to pick something out, but can you think of a specific incident that kind of revealed at least some of his character, that somebody hearing would be able to appreciate him better. Something how he dealt with something.

TKG — Well…

SDG — It’s like picking one thing out of million.

TKG — I was going to wait for the proper time to say this, but to me the incidents which stick most on my mind are how in the last few months Srila Prabhupada would constantly ask to be allowed to, um, die peacefully. And, um, how he would constantly succumb to the requests of his disciples not to leave us. Our relationship with Srila Prabhupada has always been one of total submissiveness, and complete, um…

SOUND, NOISE, POSSIBLE TAPE STOP,LOUD BANG

SDG — Okay.

TKG — Take it if ??? it’s being taped???

SDG — Yeah, it’s going on, it’s…

TKG — So…

SDG — Why don’t you sit on this side and you’ll be closer to the…

TKG — I’d rather lean this way.

SDG — I can hold it…

TKG — Is that alright?

SDG — Yeah it’s alright with me.

TKG — So, our position with Srila Prabhupada was one of complete submissiveness to his orders and instructions, his desires, just like a menial servant. It’s hardly the position of the servant to, in any way, um, strongly request the master for anything. He should simply receive the instruction or order and carry it out. Yet we found in the later months, in the most recent months, that Srila Prabhupada seemed to be demanding from us a different type of attitude and emotion, at least especially from his most personal, you know, servants. Um. A number of times he would say "Can you give me a medicine, please give me a medicine that will allow me to disappear now." Another time he said "I want most now to disappear. I want to die peacefully. Let me die peacefully." Now on one hand we could take it and give him that medicine or let him stop eating and fast until death. We could have done that. And yet it seemed that, of course we could not do that out of our love for him. And he seemed to respond so beautifully to that odd??? loving requests, that he would not leave, that he please stay with us longer. I think we all had the feeling, at least a few of us who were in his personal attendence, that there wasn’t really a question that he would live for a long time. But even though it was only a short time we wanted him to stay with us. And he would bring us to the point of complete despair, he would stop all doctors, all medicines, and bring us to the point where there no return, where he would say "Now there’s nothing left but for me to die." And this would bring within us such a great anxiety that after time we would just beg him, appeal to him, "Please Srila Prabhupada, we need you, please stay with us." And when the degree of our appeal reached a strong enough level, then he would say "Alright. I won’t leave. Give me something to drink. Call this kaviraj. I’ll stay with you." So in a sense he was deepening our affection, and in a fact when I brought this up the last time it happened, that afterwards I felt such relief, I said to him, "Srila Prabhupada, you’re driving us mad the way you’re dealing with us. You put us to the point of complete total despair, and then again you give relief by agreeing to remain with us. It this way you’re simply deepening our affection." Srila Prabhupada said very, ah, very calmly, "That is simply my duty. It’s not that it’s???… That is my duty." In fact, for one who heard him say that, in fact it was very apparent that indeed he was actually dealing with us in such a way as to make us demonstrate more and more our eternal dependence and necessity of being with him and needing him. He was teaching us how to love himself, and thereby how to love Krishna. And in fact, that’s how we have to understand the last few months of Prabhupada’s presence with us. He didn’t do anything here physically, in the sense that he didn’t do very much. He translated a little bit, but that was very little. He didn’t open any new temples, he didn’t give any lectures. He hardly made any public appearances, what’s even outside of, even in terms of circumambulating the temple, he hardly did that. He simply lay on his bed, and he gave every one of his disciples an opportunity to approach him, to render very intimate service to him, and to deepen their affection and love for him. And that was actually the purpose. He said to me, that "I want to at least travel around the world one more time." This is just before we went to London. He said, "Because, if I can go around the world once more, I can strengthen this movement and the disciples. I can strengthen their love in Krishna more." So because of his phyical condition did not permit this, we found that he did this simply by laying in bed, and by his expert handling of our devotional creepers, he trained us and helped us to become more and more lovingly attached to him and that way attached to Krishna. Therefore I feel that these last months with Prabhupada were the most important months I ever spent with him. And, ah, somehow I feel that by seeing the way he acted and the way he dealt with me personally, that ah, that I hope he, ah…

You can take this part off, this last sentence. Somehow, I feel ???… I mean I want to say something, but I’d prefer not to say it.

SDG — Yeah. Alright. Um. Yeah, some of these questions have plagued nondevotees. (Laugh)

TKG — What to do? I mean, was that alright, did I… ?

SDG — Oh, yeah! But this one, like, people want to know, what is the ingredients of greatness? Everyone’s after that.

TKG — What are the ingredients of greatness?

SDG — Yeah. So Prabhupada is certainly great by any estimation, he created a world movement. So by observing him, what particular traits did you see in him which you say would most contribute to his greatness.

TKG — There’s only one trait that contributed to his greatness. I mean, this the actual reason. Then we can go into the mundane reasons. But the actual reason is that Prabhupada is a completely surrendered servant of God. He’s completely attached and surrendered to God. As God creates the entire creation and this universe, and because He’s the creator and the maintainer, He’s also the controller of all activities, ultimately. And for one who completely surrenders unto the supreme controller, Krishna, Krishna enables that person to perfectly carry out the mission of the Supreme Lord. So actually, because Prabhupada chose to carry out this mission of Krishna and because he completely submitted himself to Krishna’s desires and Krishna’s control he became a perfect… don’t say he became, say he was. Because… and you should place these words in the proper tense. Not that he became, he always was.

SDG — Yeah.

TKG — Because he was a completely surrendered and submissive servant of God, Krishna could act perfectly through him. Therefore there was nothing impossible for Prabhupada to do. Just as in the past we have seen quotes???, miracles performed by great saintly personalities, this is because God can create and perform miracles, and by the grace of God His pure representatives can also do this. So this is actually Prabhupada’s greatness. This is the cause of Prabhupada’s greatness. Now, from a material standpoint, you could give other reasons.

SDG — We were talking about the few of you who were with Prabhupada who learned these lessons. So, that brings up a question. He had so many disciples, how could he really relate to all of these disciples, except for a few?

TKG — Because everyone has Krishna Consciousness lying dormant within the heart. Krishna is one, and although Krishna Consciousness, service, and attachment to Krishna comes in many varieties, the basic ingredient is the same. There’s the Supreme Lord, and the part and parcel of the entity, and they eternally have a relationship. So, knowing this, Srila Prabhupada, being a perfect, Krishna Conscious realized preacher, could automatically relate everyone to Krishna, and help them to come closer to Krishna.

SDG — But how, if they weren’t with him, they were in distant parts of the world?

TKG — That is Prabhupada’s… One of the features or the qualities of the acharya is that he knows how to preach according to time, place and circumstance. Therefore, from the very beginnning before Prabhupada ever came to the West, he based this movement on books. His, ah, instructions in the form of books, because he called it the big mrdanga, brihat mrdanga. Mrdanga is a kind of a drum, and when you beat on it you can hear it for some distance. But the brihat mrdanga, the big mrdanga, the big drum, is the printing press, because it can be heard around the world. So before coming to the West, he first of all published his three volumes of the Srimad Bhagavatam, and then with that big mrdanga he began to play it and automatically we found the results sprung up all over the world. He was able to reach to all of his disciples. He said, um, jokingly, a few months ago, while he was lying upstairs in his Vrindaban quarters, there, he said, quotes, "They are wondering if this old man is still living. Now they should know that I am here and I am still beating on the mrdanga and it is going all over the world." So simply even in his most feebly physical weak condition he was still able to create devotees and to maintain devotees by his instructions, and to completely hold back the forces of materialistic civilization. Therefore it’s said that vani, or sound vibration, is more important than vapu, or physical presence. And in this respect we have to understand that Srila Prabhupada has not left us, but that he is present within his instructions. And for those who are able to repeat his instructions perfectly without changing them, all of the effect which was accomplished by Srila Prabhupada can be accomplished by his sincere, faithful followers.

SDG — I saw one press report on Prabhupada’s disappearance, and I’m getting, I’ve got the impression somehow people think of him as a cult leader, and so he’s passed away from his cult followers. So it is important if you could tell, what is the significance of his life to people in general or to the world, aside from those who are following his guidelines. What relation does he have to our times, or is he to be regarded as the leader of his own band of… To sum it up, how can he help this troubled world in general?

TKG — In the Bhagavad Gita it is described that there are two classes of men: the divine and the demoniac. So this divine means, there are two armies, God’s army and Maya, or Illusion’s, army. There are the forces of religion or religiosity, and the forces of irreligiosity. So religion does not mean cult or faith. Religion is eternal, sanatan, and religion means dharma. Sanatan dharma, eternal religion. It means the priciples as enunciated by the Supreme Personality of Godhead which are eternal, it means the characteristic of the living entity in his eternal relationship with Krishna. Just like dharma of sugar is that it’s sweet, you cannot separate sweetness from sugar, you cannot separate heat from fire, and similarly you cannot separate the living entity’s connection with God. Every living entity has a relationship with God. In that sense santan dharma means to revive one’s eternal relationship with God or Krishna. So Srila Prabhupada, the movement which he has created, and the teachings which he has enunciated will guide this, ah, will guide the human civilization for at least the remaining civilized portion of this Kali Yuga. It’s described that for the Kali Yuga still has another 432,000 years. And in these, during these times, for the next 10,000 years there is still going to be a revival of God consciousness. But we can understand that Srila Prabhupada has laid down the foundation of this revival, wheras other cult leaders, faith leaders, and so called religious leaders enunciated dharma or principles which were limited to their particular groups, the teachings of Krishna and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and of Srila Prabhupada are eternal, and they relate to the eternal relationship with God. They are not suject to a time, place or circumstance. They deal with the most basic quality within the living entity, how he becomes a devotee again, of God. So we have to understand that the absence of the pure devotee is the most unfortunate thing which can happen on this planet. The newspapers have actually, due to their materialistic nature, which they readily admit to, due to the illusion which covers this whole material world now, they have not understood, nor have most people understood the significance of Srila Prabhupada’s presence on this planet. It is the most significant thing. A pure devotee descends on this planet is the most significant, and in fact we have to admit who has influenced the world the greatest? It has been spiritual people. Spiritual personalities of the past have influenced more people for a longer time than any other kind of personalities. Now time will show that the presence of Srila Prabhupada on this planet was the greatest influence in this age. In the last… it is the greatest influence on this age. And this will be shown in time, because he has laid down, he has made available to the entire world the teachings which were contained in the Vedas, and he has also made available to the entire world the holy name of Krishna, which it is stated in this age is the only means for attaining relief from material suffering. The chanting of the Hare Krishna mantra. This is Srila Prabhupada’s gift to the world, that he has opened up the treasure house of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, he has opened up the treasure house which has been the sole possession of India for the past five thousand years. Now it has become for the whole world. Therefore the whole world will eventually recognize that he is the founder acharya of religious activities for this age, Srila Prabhupada.

SDG — Now a different kind of question. Right in the beginning without too much explanation you were talking about Prabhupada asking for something to let him disappear, that he wanted to die. So I thought of this question now, but I have it here, that ah, people sometimes challenge swamis and spirtual persons, why don’t they prevent themselves from getting old and dying. What is your reply?

TKG — No, it is stated in the Bhagavad Gita that for those who are born, death is certain. And for those who die, birth is certain. I think we’d better start again. This is not an appropriate verse. Don’t quote this verse.

SDG — OK. ????I’ll be saying that takes care of …

TKG — Huh?

SDG — But you were saying that, let it out. ???

TKG — We have to understand that the pure devotee comes here, it is described, by his causeless mercy. And we also have to understand that a great personality like Srila Prabhupada has descended from the spiritual world into, practically speaking, hell. So, Srila Prabhupada has a loving relationship with Krishna. In fact, it is stated that Krishna says "If you want to know where I am, you will find Me in the hearts of My pure devotees." And He is completely attached to His pure devotees, and His pure devotees are completely attached to Him. Therefore after some time, the pure devotee wants to again go back to Krishna. And Krishna wants His devotee back. Therefore Prabhupada once said, recently he said, "It is becoming unbearable. Becoming unbearable." We can understand that it wasn’t simply the material pain that was becoming unbearable, but that Prabhupada also wanted to be with Krishna, and not be burdened with this physically incapacitated body. ???garbled???

TAPE BREAK

SDG — ???garbled???

TKG — Oh yeah, painful. That why should he be burdened or incap… with this physically, you know, burdensome form.

SDG — But why even that? I’ve..

TKG — Why is, why does the form get old? That is… Because when one comes in this world he has to accept a material body. Of course, because the spiritual master uses his material body solely for Krishna, we understand it to be transcendental or spiritual, just like in the blacksmith shop an iron rod is put in the fire and eventually it becomes red hot and acts just like fire. So although the spiritual master’s body is made of these material elements, because they’re being utilized in Krishna’s service they have a totally trascendental influence or effect. Still, because they are ultimately made of these material elements they tend to become old, and eventually he has to give them up. But he is not affected by this change of the body. That should be understood.

SDG — At the end, or in his last months, did Prabhupada manifest any special spiritual symptoms that you’d like to talk about?

TKG — I think that that would be better discussed in a, at another time.

SDG — Do you think he left untimely, too soon?

TKG — Of course, we would have liked it if Prabhupada could live for hundreds of years and no doubt if he were able, would have done that, the whole world would have become Krishna Conscious. But we have to ultimately say that he left, he came by his causeless mercy, and he also left by his causeless mercy. Just as his coming was perfect, so his departing was also perfect. Just as it was full of meaning when he came, so also there is, ultimately must be, great meaning for his timely departure. We should not think that he left untimely. He left when Krishna and when he himself wanted to leave.

SDG — Could you explain that, ??? there is meaning to his leaving at the time he leaved? Do you…

TKG — Means that he has to ultimately have felt, and Krishna has to have ultimately felt that there was sufficient basis for this religion, basis for this movement to endure. Sufficient basis has been already given by Prabhupada, so that he and Krishna felt satisfied that this movement would endure.

SDG — Did Srila Prabhupada give you any special instructions at the end?

TKG — His instructions are given in his books.

SDG — garbled

TKG — Well…

SDG — Sometimes think of a man at the, a person, at the end of his life, especially a great man, or a father even, giving some special…

TKG — No, um, I didn’t personally ask Srila Prabhupada if he had anything in particular which he wanted me personally to fulfill. I feel…

SDG — ???? for the world a special message. It’s a karmi kind of question, but I know they want to know.

TKG — His instruction he did give for all his disciples was that now this movement has attained a prestigious, respected position amongst the scholarly class of people all over the world. And our institutions throughout the world are all substantial and we’re well represented everywhere. Now please maintain this. Do not let it deteriorate or decrease. Prabhupada emphasized that we may not even increase, although if we can increase it is to our credit, but even if we simply maintain what has already been established, that will suffice to alleviate the suffering in this world for many thousands of years to come. So I take this as very significant, and in fact it is the same instruction which he wrote to me in 1970, when I was preaching in France, that we who are the senior devotees must take care to see that at least what has already been established should be maintained nicely. So I feel that all of us as Prabhupada’s desciples, their first responsibility is to make sure that whatever Prabhupada gave to us, because we have to understand that whatever we have is the gift of Srila Prabhupada, whatever he gave to us, now is cherished and maintained. Now if beyond that we can further do more, that’s very good, very well. We would like that, and he would like that. But at least we should not in any way allow what he’s given us thus far to be in any way diminished. First of all care for your father’s property, and then think of accumulating further property. But first of all care for it, otherwise it is a great dishonor to a son if, by his neglect, he squanders his father’s property. That is a greatest disgrace for the son.

SDG — By property you mean his actual buildings?

TKG — Property? No, property doesn’t mean his acutal buildings, it means this, the buildings, the writings, the teachings, it means everything which he’s done thus far, and everything which has been done by his disciples in his presence. That should not be in any way neglected. Now this is the, I think, the most important duty of his disciples is that in loving concern they should see that their father’s, what they’ve inherited from their father is maintained. And others will respect them for that. Otherwise, for a son who neglects his father’s property, he has no position.

SDG — Um. What do you think his feelings were that this would happen, or that it would go the opposite way? You think…

TKG — No, he repeatedly said to me that he feels that there is great hope that this Krishna Consciousness movement will endure. He said I am feeling that it is in good hands.

SDG — And now that he’s gone, or has disappeared his physical presence, what do you think? What is your feeling about the ISKCON future? Because one of the disciples, he quoted that when the spiritual master appears, he brings order to chaos, and when he leaves, the chaos returns.

TKG — So therefore, that depends upon our strength in keeping Prabhupada with us. Not by his physical presence, but by his sound vibration, his instructions. In other words, just as we were able to keep Prabhupada physically with us, at least request him to stay physically with us, and he did for many months, he’ll have no objection to staying eternally with us if we request his constant instruction. So as long as all of his disciples constantly look to his instructions, and associate with him through his instructions, there will not be any chaos. But when they look away from his instructions, or when they disregard them, or neglect them, or fail to follow them, then there’ll be chaos. But Prabhupada is present as much, more so, in his instructions, than physically. Prabhupada says that vani is more important than vapu, so if by the acharya’s appearance, he brings order from chaos, then who is to say that Prabhupada is not still present? He reasons ill, let me quote that verse. Therefore we do not feel that Prabhupada has died, otherwise if we felt that way it would be unbearable to live. We regret the loss of his physical presence, but we are consoled by his eternal presence in the form of his instructions. And therefore we are very hopeful that the order which he has created will continue to exist for many thousands of years to come.