Section 4

Letter COM:1690100 (108 lines)
From: Krishna Kirti HDG
Date: 16-Sep-98 01:09
To: (Temple) **** (India)
Reference: Text COM:1687654 by (Temple) xyz(India)
Subject: You can lead a ************ but you can't make *** think.
------------------------------------------------------------
Dear ***** Mataji, please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to your divine initiating and instructing spiritual masters. All glories to ISKCON Founder-Acharya Srila Prabhupad.

> So far there has been a lot said on this issue, most of it correct, but some of
> it fanatical. Your contributions have been, to date, balanced and
> philosophically sound - until this one titled "you can lead a horticulture
> but you can't make her think".
>
> I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one, but would request that
> you explain that you are indeed not calling the women of ISKCON whores
> who have been shown what culture is but are unable to utilize sufficient
> intelligence to adapt to that culture. Please explain.
>
I think, in this conference, it is easy to forget that women are present.
Certainly most all of the talking (particularly on the recent subject of women) has been done only by men. Believe it or not, such a line as was in
my subject header is not usually considered offensive among men in a forum
such as this. But yes, women will find this categorically offensive, no matter what the circumstances. I apologize for this discrepancy.

As far as whether such a statement in and of itself is offensive to the women of ISKCON, I reread my letter and did not find such an insinuation. This is my text in the main body:

> It's Kali yuga--what can be done? The "womyn" don't want to be "women".
> And the men don't want to be responsible. In English it is said that every
> cloud has a silver lining. If anything, it's good to see the ugly side of the
> fair sex displayed so prominently.

Here is one comment I received from a senior devotee (name witheld):

> > It's Kali yuga--what can be done? The "womyn" don't want to be
> > "women." And the men don't want to be responsible.

> This is an important point. It is not that it is just woman who have to
> follow Vedic Dharma and not the men. Both have to, with the men leading.
> It wont work if just the women are made to follow but the men do nothing.

Where have I made such the insinuation "that you are indeed (not) calling
the women of ISKCON whores who have been shown what culture is but are
unable to utilize sufficient intelligence to adapt to that culture"?

Even if, for argument's sake, we accept the premise that I did refer to
women in ISKCON who are "unable to utilize sufficient intelligence", why
should they not be regarded according to their status? One's status in our
society (and worldly society too) is based on one's behavior--a guru is a
guru only if he behaves properly. Otherwise, why is there so much fuss at
present about fallen gurus? A man is considered responsible only if he
takes care of his wife, family and other obligatory social and religious duties. No one hesitates to criticize a fallen guru or an irresponsible man (ISKCON or worldly). Why should women not also be regarded according to their behavior?

This is the safety net afforded by a society based on varnashram principles:
The chances of you stepping out of line (i.e. transgressing religious principles) is minimized because if you do, the whole society will criticize. Because human beings are social animals, there are few punishments stronger than public censure. Just look at Bill Clinton, he must have lost ten years off his life for his impropriety. What to speak of so many great devotees who had given their life to Srila Prabhupada and have fallen down. That there is public outrage against improperly behaved leaders, men and women is a healthy sign that we, in ISKCON, are making some social progress--coming closer to the standards we are supposed to be practicing.

There are two categories of fallen people (within ISKCON): (1) those who are
very determined to continue with certain, cherished illusions, in spite of all help; and (2) those who are struggling to overcome their weaknesses.

Those in the second category have at least recognized their insufficiencies.
Because they have a more or less accurate understanding of what is their
actual advancement, they are generally humble and can even bear harsh
remarks about their shortcomings. This class should be treated respectfully.

Regarding those in the first category, they also have come to the shelter of
ISKCON, they aren't like the karmis, but at the same time, unlike the
devotees in the second category, they have some anarthas which they just
refuse to admit to having, even to themselves. In order to protect these
anarthas, they can offer subtle and gross mal-interpretations of scripture to
justify their continuance of a cherished illusion or sinful activity.

To rectify such devotees is very difficult and often requires tools like harsh words and denial of certain privileges. If in spite off all efforts they do not reform, then ostracism is the only recourse because if they are not ostracized, they will pollute others with conclusions that are against our siddhantas, eventually leading others to sinful life. This is the way varnashram works.

Note that both categories mentioned have anarthas, it is a question of humility and honesty that determines one's category.

Please consider the following (without considering it a personal attack):

If I had written the subject header with a masculine spin instead of a
feminine spin, would you have objected? Do you think that some woman (even one), somewhere would have complained in a similar fashion? "Why are you so 'down' on ALL the men in ISKCON? Just because they [have been shown what culture is but are unable to utilize sufficient intelligence to adapt to that culture,] are you indeed not calling them scoundrels?"

I, however, do accept that it was a mistake to use such language in mixed
company. I'm sorry, and I will be more careful in future correspondence.

Please offer my respectful obeisances to your husband.

Your servant, Krishna-kirti das
(Text COM:1690100) ------------------------------------

Letter COM:1693xyz (28 lines)
From: (Temple) ****(India)
Date: 17-Sep-98 00:43
To: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA) [495]
Reference: Text COM:1690100 by Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA)
Comment: Text COM:1693285 by Krishna Kirti HDG
Subject: You can lead a ************ but you can't make *** think. . .
------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Krishna Kirti Prabhu
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Thank you for a thoughtfully constructed response. I was correct to give you
the benefit of the doubt.

I accept also your criticism that if the title were posted in a male oriented way, it wouldn't have had the same affect. I can only apologise for my western conditioning - I can't shrug it off completely. Some things set the defenses off immediately. It can't be helped. But I really liked your comments about there being 2 kinds of fallen people in ISKCON. I hope I
develop the humility required to be able fall into the latter category, viz,
those who are struggling to overcome their weaknesses, rather than clinging
on stupidly to some outrageous karmi ideal. I also, incidentally, was able to read Shyamasundara's comments and agree with him - he is also offering a very balanced viewpoint on this conference, what I've seen of it.

I also read your other letter saying that in regular Vedic society, when a
woman wishes to convey something she does so through her husband. This is
something also that we western women are not used to, and which brings me to my final point. You end your letter requesting that I pay my obeisances on your behalf to my husband. Either you are confusing me with someone else, or you are presuming too much. I don't have a husband. But I'll be sure to pass on the message when I get one!

Your servant
****dasi (xyz)
(Text COM:1693xyz) -----------------------------------------

Letter COM:1698467 (25 lines)
From: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA)
Date: 18-Sep-98 22:59
To: ISKCON India (news & discussion) [326]
To: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA) [13774]
Reference: Text COM:1697796 by Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS Comment: Text COM:1698632 by Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)
Comment: Text COM:1701462 by Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS
Subject: Washington Post, Wednesday, 16 Sept., 1998
------------------------------------------------------------
> Why did you send this smut to me?

It doesn't seem you read the article in its entirety to appreciate it. Let me quote the essential portion (the end), for which the "smut" you were offended by was supportive evidence:

> (4) It is common for Clinton supporters to say his policies have been the
> inverse of his personal degeneracy. Thing again. Look at where feminism-
> -certainly a key Clinton policy--has left the women around him.
[. . .]
> One aspect of the Clinton mess is the light it throws on what feminism has
> done to our culture--provide ample sport for male satyrs and dishonor for
> the women around them.
> [End]

The whole point being made by this journalist (who also happens to be a
lady) is that feminism has had the reverse effect of what feminism's
purveyors intended: it has ruined the lives of so many women. That even the karmis are now becoming aware of this is a very good thing.

I posted this originally to the ISKCON India (news & discussion) forum,
which is a private conference. Are you a member of this conference?
(Text COM:1698467) -----------------------------------------

Letter COM:1704158 (77 lines)
From: Dayaram (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN)
Date: 20-Sep-98 10:23
To: Rasananda Swami (USA) [2773] (received: 20-Sep-98 12:59)
To: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) [5814]
To: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP [4758]
Cc: Bhakti Vikasa Swami [8403]
Cc: Jasomatinandan (das) ACBSP (Gujarat - IN) [1179] (received:***
Cc: Jivan Mukta (das) TSI (Back to Basics) (Ontario - CAN) [181]
Cc: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA) [566] (received: 20-Sep-98
Reference: Text COM:1698628 by Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)
Subject: Women only at home? My comments to you all
------------------------------------------------------------
> > The girl was apparently frustrated with the loving exchange with her
> > mother and was crying, but the mother did not care much. Why? She was > > a big manager and busy talking with two sannyasis. The mother was
> > actually angry with her daughter because she could not talk in a peacefull > > way with us.
>
> Good point. It doesn't seem like a big thing, but it IS true. Women ought to > do their duties & let the men do theirs.
>
> There is a lot of contamination about this among the "big leaders" in our
> movement. Due to their "Western" cultural background & lack of depth of
> understanding of the traditional culture of India, which Srila Prabhupada
> wanted devotees to see firsthand & imbibe.
>
> On the contrary there is some kind of "despise India" mood that many
> Westerners love to keep. In a suble psychological way. Maybe it's some
> kind of inferiority complex? I can't say for sure, but it's unfortunate that
> due to that they don't understand so much that is for their subjective
> benefit and for the objective benefit of the ISKCON institution. Bhakti Vikas
> Maharaj mentioned the name of one prominent GBC/sannyasi in this
> regard.
>
> There are MANY. It would be best to keep this philosophical, but it must
> be stern & the efforts to see it adopted must go "all out." There will have to > be a lot of lobbying at Mayapur.
>
> Dayaram Prabhu will also get involved in this too.
>
> dasabhas,
> Basu Ghosh Das

I am also in full agreement with the proper cultural behaviour in ISKOCN.
Women must be respected and protected but not allowed to act like men. But
some leaders appear to miss the point and some of them are outright afraid
to speak as it makes them look bad(?) and against the current fashion and
what not?

After this year's GBC meeting there was istagoshti and the announcement of
the first woman GBC candidate for GBC was made and many were in ecstasy and then some one suggested what about women leading kirtan etc. and the then chairman said why not start from tomorrow. Who will lead the mangala arotika tomorrow and 2-3 matajis came forward to volunteer. I couldn't belive this and thought oh! Krsna! in Mayapura ladies are going to lead and sannyasis are going to follow. What message it will send?

Anyway I approached the chairman and questioned him 'how can you do such a thing without consulting local authorities." And requested ladies not to do it after chairman agreed that our stand is correct.

But I am not sure what will happen this year. Whether GBC will pass such a
resolution to that effect then we will be helpless.

In the meantime I was painted as villain by many Matajis and I think also on some web pages. And the propaganda is so heavy that I find myself thinking twice and discussing with some others before telling any woman about any improper behaviour i.e. improper dancing in the temple during sandhya arotka, which otherwise I wouldn't think tiwce before correcting. We need lot of voices of leaders oppsoing this trend. At the same time be careful not to create feeling among newer devotees that all women are off or still worst GBC body is useless.

So, although we didn't allow women to lead kirtan in the temple, anyone
misbehaving with women is dealt with heavy hand and offenders were publicly punished to create proper etiquett.

I have feeling that all those who have understanding on this issue should
speak up and not keep quite else we will have many uncultured practices
pushed into our movement.

Hare Krsna.
Ys
DRD

PS My heartfelt thanks to all of you for bringing this important topic up.
PS I didn't get previous texts. Basu Ghosh Prabhu could you send them to me
please?
(Text COM:1704158) -----------------------------------------

Letter COM:1730055 (51 lines)
From: Dayaram (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN)
Date: 29-Sep-98 13:45
To: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) [6342] (received: 30-Sep-98
To: Hari Sauri (das) ACBSP [10879] (received: 30-Sep-98 00:23)
To: Sita dd <btb@georgian.net> (sent: 29-Sep-98 13:51)
Cc: GHQ [17] (sender: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN))
Cc: Bhakti Vikasa Swami [8727] (received: 30-Sep-98 07:51)
Cc: Rasananda Swami (USA) [2911] (received: 29-Sep-98 20:04)
Cc: Jasomatinandan (das) ACBSP (Gujarat - IN) [1222] (received:29-Sep
Cc: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP [5200]
Cc: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA) [780] (received: 29-Sep-98
Reference: Text COM:1708389 by Hari Sauri (das) ACBSP
Subject: Proposal for the 1999 GBC meetings in Mayapura
------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > P.S. Hari Sauri & Dayaram Prabhus; what do you think?
>
> I am personally swamped with e-mail and I can't handle anymore no
> matter what the topic. In general I support the initiative because whatever > we do has to be based on Srila Prabhupada's books and the more extreme
> people pushing for change want to do it on the basis that Srila
> Prabhupada's words were for a limited time and circumstance. However I
> don't have the confidence that they have the spiritual intelligence to
> understand what was a principle and what was time place and
> circumstance application.
>
> There is too much bodily consciousness in our society from both sides --
> men and women -- and this is the root cause of the problems. Bad
> treatment from men cannot be counterbalanced by artificial legislative
> means such as "equal representation" in management for women etc. This
> will simply reduce our society down to a material political organization
> with no potency left for preaching.

Just as Husband as Swami has authority over wife(woman) he also has
responsibility towards her. Men can't have only authority and no
responsibility. In Mayapura to the extent possible we tried to make sure that
along with strict behavioral standards for the ladies they are not ill treated or dishonored eg. when we found that some man made made lewd calls to some ladies we track the guy down and then gave him good punishment and he had to fall at the feet of the ladies whom he offended and beg forgiveness. And many ladies appreciate that. Although some ladies have made it a point to flog Mayapura on the internet or publicly many resident
ladies support us.

So, we along with pushing the right standard for GBC in our own temples and
personal behaviour act with such a responsibility and I am sure many ladies
will start seeing this and supporting it and then implementation will be easy. Else we can still go ahead with our program and presentation but many
ladies will unfortunately see it as male chauvinism.

>This will simply reduce our society down to a material political organization
>with no potency left for preaching.

Unfortunately this is the way it is going.
>
> So go ahead but please don't expect any input from me right now.

> Your humble servant,
> Hari-sauri dasa

I also whole heatedly support the initiative but very busy with Mayapur
floods and many other things. I may not be able to contribute much but
definitely encourage devotees like Vidvan Gauranga and others to do the
required research etc.

Hare Krsna.
Ys
DRD
------------

Text COM:1738427 (164 lines) [W1]
From: Shyamasundara ACBSP
Date: 02-Oct-98 08:15
To: GHQ
Subject: Re: Feminists
------------------------
---------- Forwarded Message ----------

Letter COM:1731323 (146 lines) [W1]
From: Jaya Tirtha Charan (das) JPS
Date: 29-Sep-98 22:07
To: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP [5209]
Reference: Text COM:1731197 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP
Comment: Text COM:1737208 by Shyamasundara ACBSP
Subject: Re: Feminists
------------------------------------------------------------
Haribol Shyama' prabhu,

PAMHO., AGTSP.,

Thank you very much for that, it certainly is what I would call needed.

>Dear Jayatirtha Caran Dasa,
>
>Please accept my best wishes. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
>
>No need to be a mouse anymore. The reason I asked you about your stand >on feminism is that finally a backlash against feminism is starting in >ISKCON.

Great!!!

>We have started an action committee, and are gaining support in four areas:
>GBC's, sannyasis, temple presidents, and women.

I'm of the opinion that any woman who is TRULY a feminist (prakrti and not
a mini purusha) will be reasonable toward our views. In my experience most
of them are the one's who have some kind of "background" in abuse - be it
by a father, uncle, boyfriend or husband, non of which we would support
anyway. the unfortunate thing is that then they seem to take it as their life's mission to either give any male of the species a flaming hard time to make some kind of karmic payback towards us, or think that their rejection of any kind of "protection" (thinking themselves equal or in many cases superior) has turned their innocence and shyness into a form of hard heartedness that often is symptomised by abuse victims/rape victims/etc.

Obviously I respect their (women's) vulnerability, and understanding their emotional standing view that their being misled by these "Feminazis" will if it is not dealt with destroy the infrastructure of what is left of our society.

Bhagavad Gita clearly states that where women are not protected that
ruination of society follows. I think we've all seen that, especially of the sixties and seventies (alright the eighties and nineties too). The amazing this is that according to shastras like the Grhya Sutras the position of women is clearly stated according to their functionary attributes.

It's a well known fact that every month they become completely irrational, unapproachable, emotional, abusive, vindictive, etc., etc., as the PMS
monster raises its ugly head. The best thing for them to do is to go into
retreat and leave the rest of society to get on with developing the
preaching, etc. Otherwise, we've experienced this at home due to the tired,
emotional state of affairs that they have, there are constant misunderstandings, clashes, and a mood of total disharmony takes over. In
New Zealand the non-devotees have a saying "that when mum's not happy, no one is happy!!!" We have a policy at home that to avoid this kind of social
disruption my wife and eldest daughter makes themselves scarce - they rest
and read. My son and I cook and run the house at this time. Mum has a
holiday - she likes that too!

I feel very fortunate in one respect that my wife has some nice association
with women who are happily married, who have good status as being known as intelligent devotees, and are respected because of that, and therefore don't need to have to stuff it up your nose all the time how wonderful they
are!

Yes, that's what I believe the root of the entire matter is: just as with children who join gangs to show their unity, identity, and superiority (mostly coming from dysfunctional backgrounds); and indigenous peoples the world over who have also been exploited by colonialists; or the Puranjans' of this world - these people all have axes to grind. There often is truth behind what they say to some degree, under certain circumstances but they just have the tendency of going over board.

>May I suggest that you become a member of the Dharma of Women forum
>which is hosted by Mother Sita and is very antifeminist. This will give you a >lot of ammunition and help raise your confidence on the matter. Many >devotees felt isolated regarding their views on feminism thinking they >were alone on the >matter, but actually most devotees are antifeminist, >even the women. So join that >forum and get some inspiration.

Yes I'll get right onto that.

>Aside from that we could use your help in putting together and organizing a
>presentation for the GBC. You have research and writing ability which could
>be useful in our cause. In any case you may be able to help in some way. >We need some dedicated persons to help. Let me know if you're interested >in helping with a counter offensive against the feminists. We would like to
>have something put together by December so that the GBC has time to look >it over before the Mayapura meetings. Do you have Folio?

No unfortunately my Folio is not working. But let me see, as I do want to get it again.

>At this time keep this information under your hat, we don't want to let the >cat out of the bag.

MUM's the word!!!

>However, it would be good if you contacted other devotees of similar views
>and network with them so that when we are ready to move we will already
>have distribution channels in place for disturbing the information. The part
>that you should keep to yourself is that there is a special subcommittee >working on it.

Yes, I know a number of devotees who have been praying like me for
something like this to come about. None I may add are chauvinists by that
definition, but just devotees who are sick and tired of being counter-exploited.

>I am assuming that you will be eager to join this task of fumigating ISKCON
>and getting rid of this pestilence. Therefore I have attached to this letter
>a copy of the Manusamhita for research purposes.

Prabhu, there were no attachments with this message. For some reason COM
does that a lot to my mail. If you would be kind enough to send it again I
would appreciate that.

>Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada
>
>Shyamasundara Dasa

I have some really horrendous articles in some of my University study books
pro-cases for feminazis - I had some real good run-ins with those blokes
(mostly a bunch of dykes......!) I personally think that that's where most of this is coming from........so many women of today have been influenced by the radical outspoken professors, and students in mundane academia, and have carried those misconceptions based on, as I mentioned either dysfunctional "bad experience", sensual preferences, or lack of spiritual knowledge and practical application of it, and brought it with them as "Knowledge -or-science" - whereas really it is the accumulation of nescience.

ys, JTCd.

Text COM:1748103 (112 lines)
From: Internet: ameyatma (ACBSP) <ameyatma@iname.com>
Date: 06-Oct-98 11:51
To: GHQ [218]
Comment: Text COM:1750547 by Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA)
Comment: Text COM:1750699 by Shyamasundara ACBSP
Subject: DIS: Women Do Have Legitimate Issues
------------------------------------------------------------
I think another goal of our effort should also be to recognize and properly
address the issues many women have had which have led them to form or
become favorable to this women's ministry and now equal rights issues.

Looking at in from their perspective: ISKCON has been prominently led by
men. And ISKCON's leadership has failed over the years in many ways.
Dealing specifically with their issues, ISKCON has failed to provide stable
or substantive 'protection' for the women in general. This is true in many
ways.

And many of these women have been abused in marriages that did not work
out. They have a hard time seeing these things as their own fault, that it
may be due to a lack of being submissive, which is what Prabhupada said is
the actual cause of most divorces in the West. Since these things are not openly or widely preached, the women come to the hard and fast conclusion that their abuses were caused, again, by useless men in the post of authority
(their husbands).

Since men have been in charge of ISKCON and these women are not satisfied
with so many issues, the guru issues, the lack of properly placed and strong guidance by the GBC, etc., they have reached the conclusion that the root source of all these problems is due to the leaders being men. The real root source is that the men were not fully self-realized, were not fully qualified, but there is no evidence that points to the idea that these women are any better qualified then their male counter parts. Rather, we all grew up from the same mleccha culture of the modern times. If the men have blown it, how much more the women will blow it. But, that is NOT their thinking. Their thinking is that the men blew it, now it is up to the women to save the day....

The whole women's issue has arisen because there are legitimate complaints
that the women have not been protected properly.

I say our effort must therefore deal with whole issue, we must also address
the legitimate issues concerning the women. Otherwise simply attacking
their efforts to help the situation and injustices of the past by removing
them only, and not providing any formal and formative - substantive,
solutions to the real problems will be only a hollow attempt. We need to
fill up our effort with the weight of proper - shastric directed - solutions to the real underlying social problems.

Protection: Protection for unwed (never previously wed) girls is marriage. Not just marriage, but marriage to a qualified man who can proper 'protect' and guide the girl.

I have written a book on training for the girls. Home is the domain of the
wife. The man's work is with the world in general. Teacher, Government,
Businessman, Laborer assistant, all work for and in the society in general.
But home is the domain of the women. So, most insruction on how to make
family life successful and peaceful is given to women. But, men also need
some good instruction, so I also want to write a smaller section on training for brahmacaris on how to make good KC husbands. Brahmacaris must be trained how to become responsible, how to respect women, how to treat them lovingly like a child and care for them (obviously woman is to be
known as maya, her association is to be avoided by brahmacari, but that
does not mean she is to be disrespected, to be spit on or looked down on.
No, woman are to be highly respected and cared for, but for the celibate
men, they are to be respectfully avoided). That training is needed, because as much as there is a feminist movement in the West, there is also a lack on the men's side to be caring responsible husbands.

Then, for women who are married, their husband's must provide protection.
But, just as we have our child-abuse network set up, we need to set up a way for women with grievances to be heard by the authorities. I was told
that Ram Chandra set aside one or two hours every morning to hear from any citizen who had some problem. They could approach Sri Ram directly and he would listen and do what he could to solve the problem. This means, possibly, marriage counseling. But, the training for the counselor should be how well he understands dharma, and the roles of men and women in accordance with the laws of Dharma and Srila Prabhupad's teachings, not that he has had 'professional' training by non-devotees in so-called equal-rights or new-age or Freudian concepts of marriage counseling.

Then, for whatever reason a woman is living without her husband, divorced,
widowed, whatever, ISKCON needs to provide women's ashrams where such women can go, along with their children, and be given some facility and
protection. One older mataji, Devahuti, told me she had been given direct orders by Prabhupada to do this, and she gave me what short details
Prabhupada gave her to do this.

So, protection of women must be addressed by us. But, protection of what?
Her CHASTITY. So these things are needed. Education and training in what is chastity and why it is needed in society. Then facilities for properly protecting their chastity.

If the leadership, and men, in ISKCON had provided proper protection for
the women, they would not complain. The fact that women are complaining
like mad is due to the fact the men have not properly protected them. But
the solution is not to hand over leadership to them. That Shastra condemns. That will not solve anything, but simply cause many times more problems.
So, that part we agree to deal with. The other part is to address these issues.
I will take some of my essays on Chastity and protection, etc., IF and when I get time, and make some arguments as to how to address the issues of
training and education of both men and women on this issue of chastity -
and why it is needed.

Also we should have some solid guidelines for starting proper women's
ashrams to give protections to the widows and single mothers, etc. We must take up the problem of making women feel so well taken care of they will have no complaints and will then respect such men's leadership. Such proper respect of leadership is EARNED by our proper and good deeds, not dictated by word and enforced by the sword alone. Let us EARN the proper respect for male leadership.
---
ys ameyatma das ameyatma@iname.com

Chk out my web page at: http://home.earthlink.net/~kgrafx
(Text COM:1748103) -----------------------------------------

(Text COM:1785390) -----------------------------------------
(Text COM:1787396) -----------------------------------------
Text COM:1786000 (43 lines)
From: Internet: pranada@mindspring.com
Date: 20-Oct-98 14:04
To: GHQ [411]
To: IWC (Internat. Women's Conference) [1380]
To: (International) Women's Ministry [117]
To: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) [6791] (received: 23-Oct-98
To: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore - USA) [1099] (received 20-Oct-
To: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA) [15125] (received:
To: Sita (dd) GKG (Back to Basics) (Ontario - CAN) [704] (received: 20-
To: Anandini@aol.com
For: DMW (Dharma of Men and Women)
Subject: Re: Women on the GBC-- a few questions
------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Anandini Prabhu,

Just a quick point regarding your recent exchange with Basu Ghosh:

You mention that abuse is a moral issue and goes on quite a bit in
India. Basu Ghosh Prabhu disagrees with you.

Anti-cult organizations in the US and Europe watch closely how ISKCON treats our women and children. ISKCON is known around the world for not treating it's women and children very well. At least that's a shared a opinion by many. And because of this, ISKCON is a prime target by these organizations. Those devotees in Europe know the very real threat of the
entire movement being completely shut down and this was one of the main
issues for our detractors.

According to findings by the largest anti-cult group here in the US, Hindu women are the MOST abused women in the entire world. More abused than any other cultural group on this planet (even those groups traditionally known for subordination of women like Iranians, Chinese, etc.)

Just in case that didn't sink in look at it again:

Hindu women are the MOST abused women in the entire world.

Findings state that the reason this is so is that the Hindu women are the most likely NOT TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THEIR ABUSIVE SITUATION. Their training, as Basu Ghosh highlights is to stay with the husband at all costs, be submissive, etc.

There is nothing glorious about this and ISKCON women certainly don't have to follow suit in the name of being chaste or "Vedic."

Denigration of women has proved to foster abuse of women, wife burning (the horrors of India), abandoning female children, etc. And
subordination of women in Kali-yuga many times equates with the denigration of women as proved by the examples of abused Hindu women all over the world.

P.S. Are you the Anandini dasi in Russia that I met in India? Did you get
the Sadaputa tapes I sent you for the radio programming? How are you?
(Text COM:1786000) -----------------------------------------

Text COM:1803498 (337 lines) [W1]
From: Internet: ameyatma (ACBSP) <ameyatma@iname.com>
Date: 25-Oct-98 00:58
To: pranada@mindspring.com
Cc: DMW (Dharma of Men and Women) [1912]
Cc: (International) Women's Ministry [121]
Cc: Bhakti-tirtha Swami [3405] (forwarded: 27-Oct-98 16:10)
Cc: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA) [15307] (forwarded:
Cc: Anandini@aol.com
Bcc: GHQ [452]
For: IWC (Internat. Women's Conference)
Reference: Text COM:1786000 by pranada@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Women on the GBC-- a few questions
------------------------------------------------------------
All Glories To Srila Prabhupad.
(I don't know why I am getting this so late. It says it was written on10/20, but I am just getting today, and msgs I have posted to DOW have not been showing up?)

At 10:04 AM 10/20/98 -0400, Mother Pranada wrote: (to Anandini dd)
> You mention that abuse is a moral issue and goes on quite a bit in India.
> Basu Ghosh Prabhu disagrees with you.

I have not had a chance to read exactly what Basu Ghosh wrote, but, I would
agree that 'abuse' is a lack of moral standards. How much it goes on in India, I have no idea, but, I have read about some things, and by their very gross nature many of these gross atrocities can NOT be attributable to Vedic culture - at all. Such as after the man has sex with his new wife, he beats her and sends her away because the dowry was too small. I have read things like this and my blood boils. It is NOT due to brahminical culture, it is due to the fact that there are no Brahmans at the head. Instead, by popular vote, there are Sudras for leaders. There are no Powerful Ksatriya Warrior Men who take guidance from the brahmans who will protect the weak and innocent. Instead, there are only weak minded cheating sudra politicians. India has it all, from the most offensive impersonal philosophy to the most absurd and bizarre, to filthiest cities (Prabhupada called Calcutta the ANUS of the Universe), to the seediest characters to the most splendid transcendence. Only the later is attributable to Vedic culture.

> Anti-cult organizations in the US and Europe watch closely how
>ISKCON treats our women and children. ISKCON is known around the world >for not treating it's women and children very well. At least that's a shared a
>opinion by many.

Who? Anti-cult organizations? Srila Prabhupad would be happy to hear his
followers quoting from them and following their ideals. This is whom we
should refer to as out authority for social standards? ? ? I agree, many women have been abused, but I strongly object to the philosophical explanation that Pranada gives below. I object because it is not based on the teachings of Srila Prabhupada or on shastra.

> According to findings by the largest anti-cult group here in the US,
>Hindu women are the MOST abused women in the entire world. More >abused than any other cultural group on this planet (even those groups
>traditionally known for subordination of women like Iranians, Chinese, etc.)

Why is a devotee quoting from such a demoniac organization? Can mother
Pranada find ONE single quote by Srila Prabhupada that would substantiate
this claim? That Hindu women are the MOST abused?

> FIndings state that the reason this is so is that the Hindu women
>are the most likely NOT TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THEIR ABUSIVE >SITUATION.

Findings made by WHO? By Self Realized Saintly Vaishnavas? Or made by
the anti-cult groups? Anti-cult groups are anti religious, of course they will attack India, because India is the seat of religiouisity. So, we should quote them as our authority over and above the greatest self realized saintly person, Srila Prabhupad?

>Their training, as Basu Ghosh highlights is to stay with the husband at all
>costs, be submissive, etc.
>
> There is nothing glorious about this and ISKCON women certainly
>don't have to follow suit in the name of being chaste or "Vedic."

Totally at odds with Srila Prabhupad who has said that this is Glorious for
such women. These words are agresively offensive as they are 100% opposed
to what Srila Prabhupad has taught.

Not once in her letter has she quoted from Vedic scripture or from Srila
Prabhupad. She is not lending support nor promoting what Prabhupad has
taught, nor is she supporting her own views with quotes from Shastra or
guru, but instead she supports and takes support from anit-cultural -
anit-dharma - anti-religious - anti-cult organizations. This is both very
dangerous and very offensive to the Vedas and the great self-realized souls
of our Sampradaya.

She claims that ISKCON women do not need to follow suit in the name of
chastity or Vedic. But, Srila Prabhupad wanted that the ISKCON women be
chaste and Vedic, submissive wives.

> Denigration of women has proved to foster abuse of women,

The word denigration means to vilify or put them down. Yes, I fully agree
with this. No man - no brahman, no Vaishnav, nor gentleman should ever
deride a good chaste woman. Vedic culture does NOT deride women, but it
does teach that women are not to be allowed independence, but always taken good care of and protected just like children. That is not deriding
women, that is religious, moral, ethical protection of women. But, many
Westernized liberated women disagree. They will agrue that to say a women
should take to the subordinate - submissive - position is denigrating to
women. That is not supported at all by Srila Prabhupad, but it is supported by the demoniac anti-cultists and the modern feminazis.

Mothers such as Pranada can not find support for their views from the Vedic scripture or from Prabhupada's books, so they are now quoting from the demons and anti-cult groups for support fo their mundane - anti-dharma -ideas.

>wife-burning (the horrors of India), abandoning female children, etc.

Yes, modern India, "Hinduism", that is another thing...That is NOT the result of Vedic culture, that is the direct result of a headless society whose leaders are all sudras. It is a fact that many women are being abused. But, why? Due to the influence of Western ideas of Equal Rights, due to no proper protection.

When I told my wife what mother Pranada wrote, she asked me to write that she comes from a Hindu family, and she knows from first-hand experience. Her mother, her grandmothers, her aunts and grandaunts and so many older cousins and in-laws of her other relatives, so many Hindu women she has known who were very chaste and very submissive to their husbands, and she says there is not a sinlge incident amoung the women who were submissive of ever being abused in any way. The couples never fought, the marriages were for the most part peaceful. The women were always very well taken care of.

None of them ever worked outside the house. They were very well protected. Her grandmothers and mother had 1,000's of $$$ worth of 22 and 24k gold jewelry, their husbands always took best care of them. And they were so submissive to their husbands. My own mother-in-law, my wife's mother, told her daughter to not say one word if I were to take more than one wife. She was trained that a wife is never to raise her voice against her husband for ANY reason. She told us that is the standard that her mother and grandmother taught her to be so submissive. And NONE of them were Abused in ANY way. The examples that the anti-cultural organizations will draw upon are the gross exceptions and they are all modern, within the last 25 years or so. The more Western influence there has been in India the more the women want equal rights, more and more has there come social degradation and corruption. But, when the women and society (Men included) follow the Vedic system there is minimal such abuse. Srila Prabhupad has taught this as a science, and he has taught that when women are not submissive, then all social disruption will come. But, mother Pranada, taking support from anti-religiuos organizations is promoting the complete opposite of what Srila Prabhupad teaches, for she says:

> And subordination of women in Kali-yuga many times equates with the
> denigration of women as proved by the examples of abused Hindu women
> all over the world.

This is absurd and has support only by the demoniac anti-cultists and
feminazis. Where has Srila Prabhupad said this???? Where has he or Krsna, or Sri Caitanya, or any great saintly self-realized soul, or Vedic scriptures said this?? The only ones who say this are the demons and so-called liberated women who want artificial equal rights. This is poison which will totally corrupt our whole society.

Here are some quotes from Srila Prabhupad:

***
Morning Walk May 1, 1974, Bombay 740501mw.bom

Prabhupäda: Put problems. I'll solve.
Yogeçvara: Here's a problem. The women today want the same rights as men.
How can they be satisfied?
Prabhupäda: Everything will be satisfied. Just like our women, Krsna
conscious, they are working. They don't want equal rights with men. It is
due to Krsna consciousness. They are cleansing the temple, they are cooking
very nicely. They are satisfied. They never say that "I have to go to Japan
for preaching like Prabhupäda." They never say. This is artificial. So
Krsna consciousness means work in his constitutional position. The women,
men, when they remain in their constitutional position, there will be no
artificial (indistinct) (loud traffic noises)
Bhagavän: They say that our women are unintelligent because they submit so easily, but....But actually, our women are so qualified in so many ways, but these girls who simply work in the city can do nothing. They can't cook, they
can't clean, they can't sew.
Prabhupäda: All rubbish. These modern girls, they are all rubbish.
Therefore they are simply used for sex satisfaction. Topless, bottomless...
****

Srila Prabhupad says that modern women who are not trained how to be good housewives, they are all rubbish, and so the men automatically treat them as rubbish. (Don't say that 'ameyatma das' said this, Srila Prabhupad said it... Definitely the anti-cult groups did not say it, I don't quote from
them)
****
Mother Pranada, you are a follower of HDG A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Prabhupada, why don't you quote from HIM, instead of from anti-cult groups? Why not serve him by promoting these following words of Srila Prabhupad, instead of serving the anti-cultists by promoting their poison.

****
Television Interview July 9, 1975, Chicago 750709iv.chi

Woman reporter: But you say women are subordinate to men?
Prabhupäda: Yes, that is also natural. Because when the husband and wife
are there or the father and daughter is there, so the daughter is subordinate to the father and the wife is subordinate to the husband.
Woman reporter: What happens when women are not subordinate to men?
Prabhupäda: Then there is disruption. There is disruption, social disruption. If the woman does not become subordinate to man, then there is social disruption. Therefore, in the Western countries there are so many divorce cases because the woman does not agree to become subordinate to man. That is the cause.
Woman reporter: What advice do you have to women who do not want to be
subordinate to men?
Prabhupäda: It is not my advice, but it is the advice of the Vedic knowledge that woman should be chaste and faithful to man.
Woman reporter: What should we do in the United States? We're trying to
make women equal with men.
Prabhupäda: I am not trying. You are already not equal with the man because in so many respects, your functions are different and man's functions are different. Why do you say artificially they are equal?
[…]
Woman reporter: Is the social unrest in this country caused because...
Prabhupäda: Because of these things. They do not know that.
Woman reporter: And if women were subordinate to men, it would solve all of our problems?
Prabhupäda: Yes. Man wants that woman should be subordinate, faithful to
him. Then he is ready to take charge. The man's mentality, woman's
mentality different. So if the woman agrees to remain faithful and
subordinate to man, then the family life will be peaceful.
[…]
Woman reporter: You have different schools for men and women, is that correct?
Prabhupäda: Yes. Man is regulated to become a first-class man, and woman is regulated to become very chaste and faithful wife.… Then the life will be very successful. And marriage, compulsory. Marriage, compulsory.
Woman reporter: Everyone should marry?
Prabhupäda: Yes. Every woman, at least, should be married. Therefore,
according to Vedic conception, polygamy is allowed.
Woman reporter: Is allowed?
Prabhupäda: Yes. Because every woman must be married. But every man may not be married. Therefore man has to accept more than one wife.
*****
Some devotees have complained that the above conversation is quoted too
much by those who want to establish this dharma. But, I argue this is for
very good reason. First, this is a most important discussion because Srila
Prabhupada was asked very direct questions and he replied very directly on
this very topic. Secondly, it created quite a stir at the time in Chicago getting air time on the news and in the papers. And for sometime afterwards other devotees or Prabhupada himself referred to this incident when the topic of the need for women to become submissive was brought up. Thus, Srila Prabhupada himself honored it as a significant conversation. And thus it should be quoted over and over again whenever this topic is raised.

Srila Prabhupada did NOT teach that in Kali Yuga if woman become subordinate to men that a majority will become derided and abused. Where has HE said this?? But, this is what the atheistic ANTI-CULTural demons say. This is a great weakness to become so illusioned to the truth that many women who are averse to surrendering to Srila Prabhupad's instructions will quote from anti-religious demons and not promote these divine words of their spiritual master.

To preach in ISKCON you must promote and preach what Srila Prabhupad has taught, not what anit-cult demons teach. What do they know about Dharma, about religion, about what is ultimately best for human society? What is their authority? Devotees should be ashamed to quote and promote the degrading opinons of such demons over that of their own spiritual master.

Srila Prabhupad was always very clear that we must take our guidance in
life from the great self-realized souls, not from demons and rascals who do
not know the truth:

(excuse me for not taking the time to edit out the diacritics, it is very
late...)

***
SB 4.18.4
To benefit all human society, not only in this life but in the next, the great seers and sages have prescribed various methods conducive to the prosperity of the people in general.

PURPORT
Vedic civilization takes advantage of the perfect knowledge presented in the Vedas and presented by great sages and brähmaëas for the benefit of
human society. Vedic injunctions are known as çruti, and the additional
supplementary presentations of these principles, as given by the great sages, are known as småti. They follow the principles of Vedic instruction. Human society should take advantage of the instructions from both sruti and smrti. If one wants to advance in spiritual life, he must take these instructions and follow the principles. In Bhakti-rasämrta-sindhu, Sréla Rüpa Gosvämi says that if one poses himself as advanced in spiritual life but does not refer to the srutis and smrtis he is simply a disturbance in society. One should follow the principles laid down in çrutis and småtis not only in one's spiritual life but in material life as well. As far as human society is concerned, it should follow the Manu-smiti as well, for these laws are given by Manu, the father of mankind.

In the Manu-småti it is stated that a woman should not be given independence, but should be given protection by her father, husband and
elderly sons. In all circumstances a woman should remain dependent upon
some guardian. Presently women are given full independence like men, but
actually we can see that such independent women are no happier than those
women who are placed under guardians. If people follow the injunctions
given by the great sages, çrutis and småtis, they can actually be happy in
both this life and the next. Unfortunately rascals are manufacturing so many ways and means to be happy. Everyone is inventing so many methods.
Consequently human society has lost the standard ways of life, both
materially and spiritually, and as a result people are bewildered, and there is no peace or happiness in the world. Although they are trying to solve the problems of human society in the United Nations, they are still baffled. Because they do not follow the liberated instructions of the Vedas, they are unhappy.

Two significant words used in this verse are asmin and amuñmin. Asmin means "in this life," and amuñmin means "in the next life." Unfortunately in this age, even exalted professors and learned men believe that there is no next life and that everything is finished in this life. Since they are rascals
and fools, what advice can they give? Still they are passing as learned
scholars and professors. In this verse the word amuñmin is very explicit.
It is the duty of everyone to mold his life in such a way that he will have a profitable next life. Just as a boy is educated in order to become happy later, one should be educated in this life in order to attain an eternal and prosperous life after death. It is therefore essential that people follow what is given in the çrutis and småtis to make sure that the human mission is successful.
****

Where is shastric and guru support for the statements mother Pranada gave??? The only support women can find for not being subordinate and
submissive wives is from the demons, those who want to destroy our dharma and religiousity. It is the demons who want to destroy submissive faith and dharma, the deprogrammers and anit-cultists. Please, wake up and see the dangerous faults in this. The great saintly self-realized souls they have taught Manu Samhita, that women are never to be allowed independence. This is not denigrating to women, it is how to properly care for them and protect them. What is needed is more emphasis on better training of the men and women. Men need to be trained how to care for women, not how to abuse them. But, we will take the instructions from Shastra how this is to be done, not from anti-cult demons.

I agree, many women have been abused, I agree there has not been a good
system for their protection. But, the knowledge of what to do is there in
Prabhupad's books and teachings, not in the teachings of the demons.

I realize by replying to the post this will stir up some resentment toward
me, but, I cannot remain silent when Vedic culture and Srila Prabhupad's
teachings are under attack, from within.

Please forgive my offenses, I am not wanting to offend anyone, but I must
defend the Vedic scriptures and Srila Prabhupad's teachings and his mission.
---
ys ameyatma das ameyatma@iname.com

Chk out my web page at: http://home.earthlink.net/~kgrafx
(Text COM:1803498) -----------------------------------------

Text COM:1792974 (50 lines)
From: Internet: ameyatma (ACBSP) <ameyatma@iname.com>
Date: 23-Oct-98 03:24
To: GHQ [408]
Reference: Text COM:1792041 by Trivikrama Swami
Comment: Text COM:1793034 by Internet: Jivan Mukta Dasa
Comment: Text COM:1795268 by Trivikrama Swami
Subject: DIS a 3rd point of action
------------------------------------------------------------
I have had no time lately to take an active part in this very noble and needed effort.

I will join the others and welcome Trivikram here, and offer my respects to
all those in ear shot of these messages.

As I pointed out in a previous post, I still feel it is essential that we not just attack the feminists (which includes the shastric support of the idea that women can not and should not be leaders of society - they are to be dependent subordinates), but I very strongly feel our efforts will carry much more weight if we also produce a solid plan that addresses the 'real' problems that have driven so many women to desire to take on leadership
themselves. And why so many men are willing to hand over leadership to
them.

My point, which was not picked up and discussed, and so maybe others don't
agree, is that there are many legitamate concerns these women have.
However, in almost 95% of the cases, they do not seek solutions based on
Guru -Sadhu -Shastra. For instance, women claim that many have been
abused in ISKCON by husbands who were fallen. And they had no sympathetic leaders to go to for help. Then when they divorced with children, no one to help them, so they were forced to remarry, etc.

I say we must also have Vedic solutions to these problems as a part of our
attack plan. Otherwise our attack would be seen as only a power-play - a
bunch of chauvinistic male devotees trying to turn the clocks back when the
women are just coming to a point of being able to make changes that they
and others think will finally help their situations. Men also have sentiments, especially when it comes to feeling compassion for women who claim to have had difficulty. It will help us to succeed if we can win the confidence that we will address their real issues with real solutions. This will win even the compassion of other men and would gain us added support when we do strike.

I will repeat myself from a previous post, if the men had been more qualified leaders then the women would be satisfied. It is because our
leaders have failed us, all of us, the children who were beaten and molested, the women who were left without protection, the wives who were abused with no where to go, etc., that these women have felt so powerless and so much at the mercy of baffoons for so long, that out of frustration they are demanding to take matters into their own hands. We must earn the respect of leadership by becoming good leaders before most women will back off. So, somehow, I am thinking we should incorporate these ideas into our efforts and deal with these issues as a part of our plan.
---
ys ameyatma das ameyatma@iname.com

Chk out my web page at: http://home.earthlink.net/~kgrafx
(Text COM:1792974) -----------------------------------------

Text COM:1793034 (4 lines)
From: Internet: Jivan Mukta Dasa <btb@georgian.net>
Date: 23-Oct-98 04:20
To: GHQ [409]
To: ameyatma@iname.com
Reference: Text COM:1792974 by Internet: ameyatma (ACBSP)
Comment: Text COM:1800638 by Vidvan Gauranga (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN)
Subject: Re: DIS a 3rd point of action
------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with you 110%. Do you have al list of recommendations we could
start with?

ys. JMd
(Text COM:1793034) -----------------------------------------

Text COM:1795268 (10 lines)
From: Trivikrama Swami
Date: 24-Oct-98 03:37
To: GHQ [413]
To: ameyatma (ACBSP) <ameyatma@iname.com> (sent: 24-Oct-98 03:43)
Reference: Text COM:1792974 by Internet: ameyatma (ACBSP)
Subject: DIS a 3rd point of action
------------------------------------------------------------
I also agree 110% with Ameyatma prabhus point 3. It could be actualized in conjunction with point 2 very nicely. Weren't there some ladies who who had a news letter, and group that was interested in actual womens protection. They had some good quotes from Srila Prabhupada on the subject. I remember giving them a donation for their work in Mayapur a couple of years ago. Maybe we could get one of our householder couples to sort of take over their operation, and then all chip in with some financial aid and thus make it into something substantial.
Does anyone know the group that I am talking about?
(Text COM:1795268) -----------------------------------------

Text COM:1800638 (270 lines)
From: Vidvan Gauranga (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN)
Date: 26-Oct-98 18:34
To: GHQ [414]
To: Jivan Mukta Dasa <btb@georgian.net> (sent: 26-Oct-98 18:40)
To: ameyatma@iname.com (sent: 26-Oct-98 18:40)
Reference: Text COM:1793034 by Internet: Jivan Mukta Dasa
Comment: Text COM:1801756 by Internet: Jivan Mukta Dasa
Subject: Re: DIS a 3rd point of action
------------------------------------------------------------
> > I say we must also have Vedic solutions to these problems as a part of
> > our attack plan.

> I agree with you 110%. Do you have al list of recommendation we could
> start with?

I also agree 108% with this approach. I also thought the same thing. When I
discussed with an IWC-sympathizer sometime back, I discovered that many of their concerns are indeed valid. Here's a sample of what I have heard:

1. In general, women are not being protected. For eg. During public harinams, men lead kirtans, and women follow behind. One lady told me that sometimes some karmis would try to 'attack' her and other ladies but the men were absorbed in the bliss of harinama and they got fried!
2. Women are treated as it they are non-entities.
3. Husbands don't care for the wives.
4. They have God-given potential to do service in some way but it is not
recognized and used in devotional service.
5. Many ladies can't be housewives. They need to be active doing this and
that. They feel that if they are told to be only housewives, their very
service is threatened.
6. When men lust over them, no one gets on their (men's) cases. Women want to be treated with respect.
7. They don't want men to exhibit superiority complex.
8. Vedic standards are too difficult for many ladies and are thus impractical. This discourages them because they are not Hindus.
9. They need encouragement and support from men.
10. They naturally need a lot of emotional support. So they tend to go
wherever they can get it from (TP, Guru, just anyone who would care to give
them the attention).

I thought I would also comment on these points:

> In general, women are not being protected. For eg. During public harinams, > men lead kirtans, and women follow behind. One lady told me that
> sometimes some karmis would try to 'attack' her and other ladies but the
> men were absorbed in the bliss of harinama and they got fried!

This should be the concern of the grhastha devotees. One essential thing
that is taught in Indian traditional families is: vasudhaa eva kutumbakam.
The whole world is your family, not just your immediate family. So it is the
concern of the Grhastha men and women to take care of women.

The ideal situation is that every woman is a part of a family. But now that
it is not, we have to have a midway solution to this problem. Grhastha men
or women should take care of the women as their sisters. Physical protection
from the men and emotional care from the women.

In Navadvipa Mandal Parikrama that ISKCON conducts every year, both before and after the women's group, there are men, either security guards or
grhastha devotees who have been appointed for security purposes, just to
make sure that women are protected.

I also remember that once when I was a child, I went on pilgrimage with my
mother, aunt, grandmother, younger sister, and grandfather. There was no
accomodation in the Guest House. Finally my grandfather argued with the
guest house manager that there are ladies here and that he should at least
provide a small room for the ladies to stay and that he and his grandson
will sleep in the corridor or in the lounge. He got a small room and the ladies stayed there while I and my grandfather slept in the corridor that night (after getting some eatables for the ladies). It was always understood that giving physical protection and emotional support to ladies was a very high priority.

Even when there were disagreements and fighting, the men always made sure that the ladies ate and were okay. I heard that from my aunt.

We have to CARE for the ladies. I mean the Grhastha devotees have to take up that responsibility. It has to start somewhere and traditionally that meant the grhastha men.

> 2. Women are treated as it they are non-entities.

They feel that they are non-entities because that care is not there. Women
are naturally more emotional and want to feel wanted. That is why they are
meant for family life. But in nowadays modern world of rugged individualism, they also want to be independent. So this is a challenge: how to care for them even when they don't have a family environment. I leave it to you to deliberate on this.

> 3. Husbands don't care for the wives.

Apparently this is a big complaint. I don't know. We need to introduce some
law in ISKCON that when brahmacharis want to get married, they should first change into white and then consult with senior grhastha devotees and spend 2 years or so in preparing themselves materially, economically, emotionally and spiritually to become responsible grhasthas. Then they can get married. Vedic times, this was called snaataka. This comes after brahmacharya and before entering grhastha life.

Of course, I notice that most of this training in India comes right from
childhood. I can personally remember so many things my mother, aunt,
grandmother would tell me about "after you get married in future". So many
many things. Some sort of preparation was there. Expectations were clear and you could also see elder brother getting married and how they are coping with married life, etc. So there was some system of training.

So we need to have that training in ISKCON for prospective husbands on how
to deal with their wives and care for them or whatever. Training in the
sense not simply lectures but something more impressionable and concrete.

Also women have to be trained to become wives and mothers similarly.

This problem seems to be mainly due to lack of training.

> 4. They have Godgiven potential to do service in some way but it is not
> recognized and used in devotional service.

This is a very large area of concern for many of them. Everybody needs to do
some activity since they have talents which need to be used up.

Traditionally in India, women were trained to become housewives and mothers and hands-on managers of the family (families were joint-families) and household. And husbands and other men were responsible. The immense value of doing domestic services was very much taught and these values were transmitted from generation to generation. Also families were generally very conservative about changing any value and had their own circles within which such values were preserved.

So all their potential were dovetailed with household in such a way that
they were compatible with their household activities. For example, let's say
a woman has a talent to learn singing. Now, what was done was that she was
trained in singing in private in home and taught that she had to offer her
songs to her husband and please him. (That's why the 64 arts are discussed
in the kama-sastras.) The point is that that potential is dovetailed with
their household so that their essential role as housewife is not in any way
disturbed.

Of course nowadays, things are soooo different. So we need some midway
solution for most women who are not able to be that kind of housewives
mentioned above. So maybe in the beginning allow them to do somethings. But have them understand that these things will also create social mess. But
since Krsna explains that everyone acts by nature, they are unable to control their second habits. But social mess is inevitable. Simultaneously we explain to people the real standard and modus operandum in Vedic culture and all the advantages of that culture. They should be clearly told that Vedic culture is superior to our modern culture and it is better to do yukta vairagya in Vedic social framework than within modern social framework. WE have to show how and why it is better too. We have to create a sense of pride in associating with Vedic culture.

Then people, at least the sober ones, will understand why it is needed, at
least for the future generations. So even if they can't come up to the Vedic
standard, we should advertise the glories of Vedic culture in such a nice way that they think, "Even though I am unable to live by Vedic culture, may be my sons and daughters or perhaps my grandsons and granddaughters will be able to imbibe Vedic culture."

Just like in modern India, so many parents tell their children, "When you
grow up, you should go to America. We wanted to, but we can't. But at least
you should do better than us. You have to go. Or even if you can't go, at the very least, my grandchildren should go to America." So they have some sort of pride in going to America. They are unable to go; but they want their children to go or grand children to go to America.

Just as it is popular to go to America amongst modern Indians, we should
make it popular for men and women to come up to the Vedic standard. They
should be made to feel that even if *they*can't come up to the standard, their next generations should come up to that standard.

Till then, we have to tolerate. I find that the IWC doctrine is that Vedic culture is not really superior. It is *another* culture. This is wrong. We need to show that Vedic culture is superior and desirable for each and everyone. Actually that is what the Mahabharata and Puranas are doing: simply getting everyone's faith in Vedic culture. So somehow that has to be established. Then people will WANT to follow Vedic culture.

Otherwise, I see no foreseeable solution to this problem.

> 5. Many ladies can't be housewives. They need to be active doing this and
> that. They feel that if they are told to be only housewives, their very
> service is threatened.

We have to make it popular amongst all levels of ISKCON that domestic
services are dustyajya (cannot be abandoned) at any cost. And combined with a pride of association with Vedic culture, they will at least think, "Let my daughter become a good housewife. I can't because I wasn't trained and so on."

But we have to have that kind of cultural progress. step by step.

Step 1: Get people to agree that Vedic culture is the best culture. It is not simply some archaic culture, but it makes sense from every point of view
and is all beneficial. Simply saying SP wanted it may not convince everyone
but you have to show HOW it is all beneficial. This is just an on-principle
acceptance that Vedic culture is the best and our modern culture is not the
best.
Step 2: Get people to WANT to have Vedic culture in their environment.
Step 3: Get people to have it as their goal, to have Vedic culture as their
families' culture in the future.
Step 4: Get people to learn how to train their children in more aspects of
Vedic culture.
Step 5: Their children, the next generation, wants more of Vedic culture. And so on...Vedic culture is introduced over a few generations.

> 6. When men lust over them, no one gets on their (men's) cases. Women
> want to be treated with respect.

Men should be trained to respect women from a distance. We should have clear explanation of what this means. Probably including various scenarios. In Vedic culture, people were taught to respect and not simply neglect women. Of course, for those who are in the renounced ashrams such as brahmacharya, vanaprastha and sannyasa, they also should be taught how to behave as human beings without compromising their ashram principles. And women should be trained to not expect personal attention from those in the renounced ashrams. However, they should have someone to take care of them.

> 7. They don't want men to exhibit superiority complex.

This is same as above, because even though men have a tendency to lord it
over, they should be trained in the concept of protecting dependents. Women
have to be protected and not exploited. Women should be trained to accept
protection.

> 8. Vedic standards are too difficult for many ladies and are thus
> impractical. This discourages them because they are not Hindus.

They should be told that even if they can't come up to that standard, they
should train up the next generations to come up to whatever level. And the
next generation can carry forward further. That should be their vision. And
we should have them buy our vision.

> 9. They need encouragement and support from men.

Again a point of snaataka training for prospective husbands. And also women need to be trained on what to expect and how to elicit such encouragement and support from men.

> 10. They naturally need a lot of emotional support. So they tend to go
> wherever they can get it from (TP, Guru, just anyone who would care to
> give them the attention).

This is what happens when you don't give it through properly trained husbands.

I can tell you one case: I know one Western lady who is yet unmarried. She
is in her 20s. She wants to get married and is looking for a husband. In the
West, this would be considered normal and nothing would be wrong with this situation. However, I was discussing with one Indian Grhastha couple who are her friends about this. I told them, "Suppose she was in your family and she was your sister. Would you let this happen? A lady about 25 years old wanting to marry someone or rather anyone compatible?" That Prabhu told me, "Actually this would be inconceivable to me because had I been in my family, I would never let my sister have to worry about marriage. It is a great shame upon the men in the family if the women themselves have to worry about their own marriage! This is horrible!" Now he is trying to find out what kind of husband she requires and his wife is trying to get someone for her.

The point is that women need emotional care and a lot of attention but they
have to be looked after. At least those who agree to be looked after.

One thing is that when I say Vedic culture in a modern Indian context, I am
referring to those aspects of Vedic culture that are there in modern India
and not to every silly and stupid modern Indian idiosyncrasies that Pranada
dd thinks we are talking about. In other words, abuse of children, forced sati, these are not Vedic. We should be very very clear on this.

Our definition of Vedic culture should be that culture that has been instituted by Vaishnava acharyas. Just like Gaudiya Vaishnavism does not
really include aul, baul, sahajiya, etc.

IWC ladies should not lump Vedic culture with modern Indian stupidities.
They should use their discrimination, based on SP's teachings.

Anyway, these were some real concerns that I had heard from a IWC
sympathizer and my views on how to fulfill these concerns. I am sorry for
this long text.

yhs
vgd
(Text COM:1800638) -----------------------------------------

Text COM:1805435 (192 lines) [W1]
From: Jaya Tirtha Charan (das) JPS
Date: 28-Oct-98 00:49
To: GHQ [480]
Comment: Text COM:1807863 by Vidvan Gauranga (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN)
Subject: A FEW INTERESTING POINTS FROM MANU SAMHITA
------------------------------------------------------------
55. Women must be honoured and adorned by their fathers,
brothers, husbands, and brothers-in-law, who desire (their own)
welfare.
56. Where women are honoured, there the gods are pleased; but where
they are not honoured, no sacred rite yields rewards.
57. Where the female relations live in grief, the family soon
wholly perishes; but that family where they are not unhappy ever
prospers.
58. The houses on which female relations, not being duly
honoured, pronounce a curse, perish completely, as if destroyed by
magic.
59. Hence men who seek (their own) welfare, should always honour
women on holidays and festivals with (gifts of) ornaments, clothes,
and (dainty) food.
60. In that family, where the husband is pleased with his wife
and the wife with her husband, happiness will assuredly be lasting.
61. For if the wife is not radiant with beauty, she will not
attract her husband; but if she has no attractions for him, no
children will be born.
62. If the wife is radiant with beauty, the whole house is
bright; but if she is destitute of beauty, all will appear dismal.
63. By low marriages, by omitting (the performance of) sacred
rites, by neglecting the study of the Veda, and by irreverence towards
Brahmanas, (great) families sink low.

TO ME THIS SUGGESTS THAT VEDIC GOALS WERE TO SATISFY ALL WALKS OF SOCIETY. THE RESULT OF NOT FOLLOWING THE VEDIC PATH RESULTS IN WHAT WE OFTEN SEE AND HEAR COMPLAINED ABOUT, AND NOT VISA VERSA.

CHAPTER V.
89. Libations of water shall not be offered to those who (neglect
the prescribed rites and may be said to) have been born in vain, to
those born in consequence of an illegal mixture of the castes, to
those who are ascetics (of heretical sects), and to those who have
committed suicide,
90. To women who have joined a heretical sect, who through lust
live (with many men), who have caused an abortion, have killed their
husbands, or drink spirituous liquor.

HERETIC SECTS??? "NON-VEDIC" / "NON-DHARMIC" / "OPPOSING THE TEACHINGS OF SHASTRA", WHAT TO SPEAK OF ABORTIONS (freedom of womens right to choose), KILLING OF HUSBANDS IN NUMEROUS WAYS (by not following him, challenging him, cheating on him, etc.), INTOXICATION - WOULD HAUGHTINESS ALSO BE FITTING HERE OR IS THIS JUST ABOUT POLLUTING THE BODY WITH INTOXICANTS? (NO NEED TO ANSWER - JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT!!!)

CHAPTER TEN.
349. In their own defence, in a strife for the fees of
officiating priests, and in order to protect women and Brahmanas; he
who (under such circumstances) kills in the cause of right, commits no
sin.
356. He who addresses the wife of another man at a Tirtha,
outside the village, in a forest, or at the confluence of rivers,
suffer (the punishment for) adulterous acts (samgrahana).
357. Offering presents (to a woman), romping (with her), touching
her ornaments and dress, sitting with her on a bed, all (these acts)
are considered adulterous acts (samgrahana).
358. If one touches a woman in a place (which ought) not (to be
touched) or allows (oneself to be touched in such a spot), all (such
acts done) with mutual consent are declared (to be) adulterous
(samgrahana).
359. A man who is not a Brahmana ought to suffer death for adultery
(samgrahana); for the wives of all the four castes even must always be
carefully guarded.
360. Mendicants, bards, men who have performed the initiatory
ceremony of a Vedic sacrifice, and artisans are not prohibited from
speaking to married women.
361. Let no man converse with the wives of others after he has been
forbidden (to do so); but he who converses (with them), in spite of
a prohibition, shall be fined one suvarna.
362. This rule does not apply to the wives of actors and singers,
nor (of) those who live on (the intrigues of) their own (wives); for
such men send their wives (to others) or, concealing themselves, allow
them to hold criminal intercourse.
363. Yet he who secretly converses with such women, or with
female slaves kept by one (master), and with female ascetics, shall be
compelled to pay a small fine.
364. He who violates an unwilling maiden shall instantly suffer
corporal punishment; but a man who enjoys a willing maiden shall not
suffer corporal punishment, if (his caste be) the same (as hers).
365. From a maiden who makes advances to a (man of) high (caste),
he shall not take any fine; but her, who courts a (man of) low
(caste), let him force to live confined in her house.
366. A (man of) low (caste) who makes love to a maiden (of) the
highest (caste) shall suffer corporal punishment; he who addresses a
maiden (on) equal (caste) shall pay the nuptial fee, if her father
desires it.
367. But if any man through insolence forcibly contaminates a
maiden, two of his fingers shall be instantly cut off, and he shall
pay a fine of six hundred (panas).
368. A man (of) equal (caste) who defiles a willing maiden shall
not suffer the amputation of his fingers, but shall pay a fine of
two hundred (panas) in order to deter him from a repetition (of the
offence).
369. A damsel who pollutes (another) damsel must be fined two
hundred (panas), pay the double of her (nuptial) fee, and receive
ten (lashes with a) rod.
370. But a woman who pollutes a damsel shall instantly have (her
head) shaved or two fingers cut off, and be made to ride (through
the town) on a donkey.

SHOWS ANOTHER ASPECT OF WHAT VEDIC SOCIETY THOUGHT OF HOMOSEXUALITY FROM THAT OF LESBIANISM.

CHAPTER IX.

1. I will now propound the eternal laws for a husband and his
wife who keep to the path of duty, whether they be united or
separated.
2. Day and night woman must be kept in dependence by the males (of)
their (families), and, if they attach themselves to sensual enjoyments, they must be kept under one's control.
3. Her father protects (her) in childhood, her husband protects
(her) in youth, and her sons protect (her) in old age; a woman is
never fit for independence.
4. Reprehensible is the father who gives not (his daughter in marriage) at the proper time; reprehensible is the husband who approaches not (his wife in due season), and reprehensible is the son who does not protect his mother after her husband has died.
5. Women must particularly be guarded against evil inclinations, however trifling (they may appear); for, if they are not guarded, theywill bring sorrow on two families.
6. Considering that the highest duty of all castes, even weak husbands (must) strive to guard their wives.
7. He who carefully guards his wife, preserves (the purity of) his offspring, virtuous conduct, his family, himself, and his (means of acquiring) merit.
8. The husband, after conception by his wife, becomes an embryo and
is born again of her; for that is the wifehood of a wife (gaya), that he is born (gayate) again by her.
9. As the male is to whom a wife cleaves, even so is the son whom she brings forth; let him therefore carefully guard his wife, in order to keep his offspring pure.
10. No man can completely guard women by force; but they can be guarded by the employment of the (following) expedients:
11. Let the (husband) employ his (wife) in the collection and expenditure of his wealth, in keeping (everything) clean, in (the fulfilment of) religious duties, in the preparation of his food, and in looking after the household utensils.
12. Women, confined in the house under trustworthy and obedient servants, are not (well) guarded; but those who of their own accord keep guard over themselves, are well guarded.
13. Drinking (spirituous liquor), associating with wicked people, separation from the husband, rambling abroad, sleeping (at unseasonable hours), and dwelling in other men's houses, are the six causes of the ruin of women.
14. Women do not care for beauty, nor is their attention fixed on age; (thinking), '(It is enough that) he is a man,' they give themselves to the handsome and to the ugly.
15. Through their passion for men, through their mutable temper, through their natural heartlessness, they become disloyal towards their husbands, however carefully they may be guarded in this (world).
16. Knowing their disposition, which the Lord of creatures laid in them at the creation, to be such, (every) man should most strenuously exert himself to guard them.
17. (When creating them) Manu allotted to women (a love of their) bed, (of their) seat and (of) ornament, impure desires, wrath, dishonesty, malice, and bad conduct.
18. For women no (sacramental) rite (is performed) with sacred texts, thus the law is settled; women (who are) destitute of strength and destitute of (the knowledge of) Vedic texts, (are as impure as) falsehood (itself), that is a fixed rule.
19. And to this effect many sacred texts are sung also in the Vedas, in order to (make) fully known the true disposition (of women); hear (now those texts which refer to) the expiation of their (sins).
20. 'If my mother, going astray and unfaithful, conceived illicit desires, may my father keep that seed from me,' that is the scriptural text.
21. If a woman thinks in her heart of anything that would pain her husband, the (above-mentioned text) is declared (to be a means for) completely removing such infidelity.
(Text COM:1805435) -----------------------------------------

Text COM:1805617 (107 lines)
From: Dayaram (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN)
Date: 28-Oct-98 10:30
To: DMW (Dharma of Men and Women) [1929]
To: GHQ [481]
To: (International) Women's Ministry [126]
To: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley-USA) [15338] (forwarded:
To: Sita (dd) GKG (Back to Basics) (Ontario - CAN) [749] (received:
To: Anandini@aol.com (sent: 28-Oct-98 10:36)
To: pranada@mindspring.com (sent: 28-Oct-98 10:36)
Cc: Bhadra Balaram (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN) [10224] (received: 29-Oct-
Cc: Gopavrndapal (das) BCS [2178] (received: 29-Oct-98 18:54)
For: IWC (Internat. Women's Conference)
Reference: Text COM:1786000 by pranada@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Women on the GBC-- a few questions
------------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Anandini Prabhu,
>
> Just a quick point regarding your recent exchange with Basu Ghosh:

Dandavats. AGTSP.
Although I am not active on this conference. Here somethig I would like to
relate. Hope it will not offend anyone.

> You mention that abuse is a moral issue and goes on quite a bit in India.
> Basu Ghosh Prabhu disagrees with you.

I don't have the previous texts, so can't comment upon.

> Anti-cult organizations in the US and Europe watch closely how ISKCON
> treats our women and children. ISKCON is known around the world for not
> treating it's women and children very well. At least that's a shared a
> opinion by many. And because of this, ISKCON is a prime target by these
> organizations. Those devotees in Europe know the very real threat of the
> entire movement being completely shut down and this was one of the main
> issues for our detractors.

I also heard this before. All the women must be treated with respect. It's not the fault of the culture but the practitioners who have exploited it.

> According to findings by the largest anti-cult group here in the US, Hindu
> women are the MOST abused women in the entire world. More abused than > any other cultural group on this planet (even those groups traditionally
> known for subordination of women like Iranians, Chinese, etc.)

I very much doubt this. I have a Hindu body and grew up in a joint family
with 4 uncles and grand father etc. staying in the same house. Definitely
women were not leading and would do all the household work and would be the last ones to assert themselves. But never abused rather supported if
husbands tried to abuse them.

> Just in case that didn't sink in look at it again:
>
> Hindu women are the MOST abused women in the entire world.
>
> FIndings state that the reason this is so is that the Hindu women are the
> most likely NOT TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THEIR ABUSIVE SITUATION.
> Their training, as Basu Ghosh highlights is to stay with the husband at all
> costs, be submissive, etc.

It's true that they are definitely more tolerant than ISKCON women. But
their exploitation is more of exception than rule. At least in cultured families that is the case. And among less cultured families, it is quite common that wife leaves husband and takes new one etc.

> There is nothing glorious about this and ISKCON women certainly don't
> have to follow suit in the name of being chaste or "Vedic."

I am very happy that I was not born in ISKCON family.

> Denigration of women has proved to foster abuse of women, wife-burning
> (the horrors of India), abandoning female children, etc. And subordination
> of women in Kali-yuga many times equates with the denigration of women > as proved by the examples of abused Hindu women all over the world.

We have read in the newspapers, about wife burning etc. and it is definitely
true but it is not a norm for sure. The society I grew up never had such an
incident at least I never noticed it. It mostly happened in some business
communities where money was everything.

Rather I had different experience. One of my uncles was a drunkard and it
was a big shame on the family and the uncle knew it very well. So, as long
as my grandfather was alive he never came to the house in drunken state and behaved well to his wife. But later on, after Grandfather's death there was no one, who could control him. So, he would come to the house in druken
state and then started beating his wife. This was understood by other ladies
who were at home and reported to the other male members of the society. So, all the other brothers got together and warned him very heavily. But he
repeated one in their presence, and then all my other uncles and father got
together and gave him a good beating.

Although women were the last one to take their meals- after feeding children and male members of the family and sometime did grumble about it, but they were definitely protected. If someone ill-treated them then the whole family or community will come for their rescue. And in many times were controlling the families. Specially when their children grew up.

Generally in public place, When women complains against man her testimony is taken as truthful and the crowds will bash up the man for ill behaviour. I have seen it happening many times.

And Rajputs and other who are accused of male chauvinism -due to "Sati"
etc., were the ones who laid down their lives for keeping honour of the wife. Not only husband but whole clan.

To keep respect of Padmini not only her husband but the whole clan was
destroyed. Her husband could have handed her over to Allaudin Khilaji and
got patronage of Muslims and ruled Rajputana but he didn't. To protect the
honour of wife was more important for him than his life.

This was medieval India, the darkest period, when enlightenment had not
reached the shores of India from the west.

Hare Krsna.
Ys
Dayarama Dasa
(Text COM:1805617) -----------------------------------------

Text COM:1834194 (173 lines)
From: Shyamasundara ACBSP
Date: 07-Nov-98 14:19
To: GHQ
Subject: SHA Need for ideal men, then women will follow
------------------------------------------------------------
Ameyatma Prabhu has emphasized the need for training men and then the woman problem will be solved. He is correct. In the following lecture SP
emphazises that woman are mostly imbued with rajas and tamas. Men also, but only men can rise to sattva. Thus the husband must become a devotee to be able to lead his wife.

I recently attended and intensive training session on Ayurveda sponsored by the FVC, I asked the instructor Dr. Hans Ryhner, (Citrakara Dasa) about the medical differences between men and women from an Ayurvedic point of view. He said that of the 3 doshas women were mostly stuck in pitta because of their very complex hormone system. Thus they become unbalanced easily having one dosha so dominant. We didn't spend a lot of time on it but it was interesting.

yhs
shyama

___________________________________

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.3.17 -- LA, September 22, 1972 ---720922SB.LA

Pradyumna: (leads chanting, etc.)
dhanvantaram dvadasamam
trayodasamam eva ca
apayayat suran anyan
mohinya mohayan striya

Translation: "In the twelfth incarnation, the Lord appeared as Dhanvantari,
and in the thirteenth He allured the atheists by the charming beauty of a
woman and gave nectar to the demigods to drink."
Prabhupada: This is very interesting verse. (laughs) (laughter) To have very
charming wife is not very good. And in your country you have got all
charming wife. Canakya Pandita says that there are four kinds of enemies in
family life. These are very experienced version. He says, mata satru. In
family means we live with father, mother, wife, children. This is family. In
your country family does not mean father-mother, only wife and children. But in our country, according to Vedic civilization, family is a large conception. Father, mother, brother, sister, sister's son, brother's son. If there are difficulty, one has to su... So on the whole, father, mother, wife and children, consisting of, family.

Now Canakya Pandita says, "In the family there are enemies." How? Rna-karta pita satruh. Canakya Pandita said, "A father who is a great debtor, he is
enemy." Because the son inherits the money of the father, similarly, the law
is that if the father dies a debtor, the son becomes responsible to pay the
debts. That is the law, Manu-samhita. I do not know what is the law here. I
don't think the son is responsible for paying the debts of father, but in India that is the law. One big barrister, Mr. C. R. Das, his father died insolvent, making debts. So when he became very rich, he called all the creditors and paid five to five, that "My father was debtor. You take this money." That is obligation. Therefore Canakya Pandita says, "The father who dies a debtor, he is an enemy." Rna-karta pita satruh. Rna means debts. Karta means one who has committed so many debts and dies. A father...Instead of enjoying father's property, he has to pay the father's debts. So therefore that father is called enemy. Rna-karta pita satrur mata satrur vyabhicarini. "And mother, if she marries for the second time, she is enemy." Rna-karta pita satrur mata satrur vyabhicarini, rupavati bharyah satruh. "And very beautiful wife, she is enemy." And putrah satrur apanditah. "And if the son is a fool, rascal, he is enemy." Four kinds of enemy in the family.

So I think I have spoken about my own life. You know that I was a married
man. So after being married, I did not like my wife. (laughter) Somehow or
other, I did not like. I must say she is very faithful, very everything...
Everyone praised. But I did not like, somehow or other. So I was preparing
for next marriage. Next marriage. Because in India, at that time it was
allowed, a man can marry more than one wife. Now the law is there. So my
father, he was a saintly person. So he called me one day and said, "My dear
boy, you are trying to marry again. I request you don't do that. You do not
like your wife. That is a great fortune for you." (laughter) So I gave up that idea of marrying. Yes. So now I am realizing my father's blessing, yes, that if I would have been too much attached to my wife, then I could not have come to this position. That's a fact. So by ethical point of view, from spiritual point of view, to become too much attached to wife is an impediment for spiritual advancement.

Therefore it is said that anyan, apayayat suran anyan mohinya mohayan
striya. Those who are sura, demigods, they were given the nectar, and others....Others means opposite number of suran, or asuran, the atheist or
the demons. They were enchanted by the beautiful form of Mohini. Krsna's
another incarnation is female, Mohini, charming-so much charming that even
Lord Siva was after the girl. Lord Siva, he is supposed to be dhira, but he
became charmed, and he was after that girl.

So when Krsna... Krsna is already beautiful, but when He takes the shape of a woman, how beautiful He became, we can just imagine. Woman are naturally beautiful. They are called "fair sex." So mohinya. So this Mohini, this attractive feature of woman, is advantage and disadvantage also. It requires simply handling. Then it is advantage. When Caitanya Mahaprabhu played this play, Mohini role...

Caitanya Mahaprabhu was playing drama. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu was very
beautiful. He took the part of this Mohini-murti. And she was dancing with
the pot of nectar. So all the devotees, they offered their obeisances, because Mohini-murti means God's incarnation. So "My dear Lord, Your this murti, this form, this charming form, is somewhere raksasi." Raksasi means, what is called, witches? Or the female demon. "And somewhere You are goddess of fortune."

So the wife... Never mind. Generally, beautiful wife means everyone's wife
is beautiful. Unless one sees his wife beautiful, he cannot become a householder. You see? I think I did not see my wife beautiful. Therefore I
had to take sannyasa. (laughter) But generally, every one sees his wife
beautiful. There was a great poet in Bengal, Bankima Candra. He used to say
that everyone has got right to say his wife beautiful. That means the wife
may be beautiful or not beautiful to others' eye, but the husband's eyes it
must be beautiful. Otherwise there cannot be husband. So the fact is that our householder life is not a platform of being attracted by woman or by wife. No. Wife is not accepted for sex satisfaction, being attracted by her. No. Therefore wife is called dharma-patni. Dharma-patni. Dharma-patni means a religious wife, or husband and wife should execute religious life,
spiritual cultivation. That is the purpose of becoming householder. Grhastha-asrama. Not that I become attracted by wife and I become absorbed in simply sex relation and forget my real duty, Krsna consciousness. That is dangerous.

So generally, if one's wife becomes very beautiful, he forgets his real duty, Krsna consciousness, and he simply becomes a pet servant of the wife. That is the...Therefore Rupa Gosvami says, anasaktasya visayan yatharham upayunjatah. One should not be attracted for sex life. Yatharham upayunjatah. But does it mean that husband will not have sex. No. Yatharham. As it is required. As it required means sex life with wife should be performed only for begetting a Krsna conscious child. Nothing more. No more attraction. That life is better. That life means not only better. That is
the ideal life. Wife and husband, combination, both should make progress in
Krsna consciousness.

WOMAN, THEY ARE GENERALLY EQUIPPED WITH THE QUALITIES OF PASSION AND IGNORANCE. AND MEN ALSO MAY BE, BUT MAN CAN BE ELEVATED TO THE PLATFORM OF GOODNESS. WOMAN CANNOT BE. WOMAN CANNOT BE. THEREFORE IF THE HUSBAND IS NICE AND THE WOMAN FOLLOWS, WOMAN BECOMES FAITHFUL AND CHASTE TO THE HUSBAND, THEN THEIR BOTH LIFE BECOMES SUCCESSFUL. THERE ARE THREE QUALITIES OF NATURE: SATTVA, RAJAS, TAMAS. SO RAJAS, TAMAS GENERALLY, THAT IS THE QUALITY OF WOMAN. AND MAN CAN BECOME TO THE PLATFORM OF GOODNESS. THEREFORE INITIATION, BRAHMINICAL SYMBOLIC REPRESENTATION IS GIVEN TO THE MAN, NOT TO THE WOMAN. THIS IS THE THEORY. THEREFORE THE COMBINATION SHOULD BE THAT THE HUSBAND SHOULD BE FIRST-CLASS DEVOTEE, KRSNA CONSCIOUS, AND WOMAN SHOULD BE, WOMAN SHOULD BE DEVOTED TO THE HUSBAND, FAITHFUL, SO THAT SHE WOULD HELP THE HUSBAND TO MAKE PROGRESS IN KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS. THEN THEIR BOTH LIFE IS SUCCESSFUL. Otherwise, if the husband simply becomes captivated by the charming beauty of woman and engages himself in the sex life, then his life is lost, and the woman, they are less intelligent, unless they are guided by proper husband, her life is also lost. So those who are not demigods... Here it is said, apayayat suran. Sura-asura. Sura, those who are not developed to Krsna consciousness, they are asura. SO EVERY HUSBAND SHOULD BE A SURA. SURA MEANS DEVOTEE. And every woman should be religious. Religious means to become chaste, faithful to the husband. And the husband should become a devotee. Then both of them will make progress in Krsna consciousness and that is the perfection of life.

<snip>
brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param [Bg. 18.54]

So without being brahma-bhuta, that "I am spirit soul," Krsna consciousness
does not become very perfect. If we are in the bodily concept of life, then it is rather difficult. It will take time. Because unless you come to the platform to understand that you are not this body, you are spirit soul, the actual devotional service does not begin. But to the neophyte student, the chance is given to develop this devotional service: sravanam kirtanam smaranam arcanam vandanam dasyam. The method is by constantly being engaged in devotional service, one becomes realized soul. God helps him, Krsna helps him. Then he becomes a perfect, liberated soul.

Liberated soul means hitva anyatha-rupam. Now we are working under the
designation of this body. Everyone is working under this designation of this
body. When we become above the designation of the body, that is our real,
constitutional position. So first of all, to realize that "I am not this body," and the next stage is that "I am spirit soul, part and parcel of Krsna. Therefore as part and parcel is meant for giving service to the whole, therefore my constitutional position is to serve Krsna." That is perfection of life.
Thank you very much. (end)
(Text COM:1834194) ----------------------------------------

Text COM:1834636 (123 lines) [W1]
From: Shyamasundara ACBSP
Date: 07-Nov-98 21:56
To: GHQ
Comment: Text COM:1839875 by Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)
Subject: SHA Woman instructed by husband/no brahmacarini ashrama
------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Maharajas, Prabhus and Mataji,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Bhakta-vigna-vinasha, Narasimhadeva Bhagavan kijaya!

In the following selection from a lecture by Srila Prabhupada he explains
that in Vedic culture a woman doesn't even go to a spiritual master for
instruction and education what to speak of school or brahmacarini ashrama.
Her intructor and teacher is her husband (father when young). BUT the
husband must be of high quality and gentle, etc. So the onus is on the man.
However, having said that, it would be crazy to marry a gentleman to a
modern woman. When I was in India it was comely said that SP said that if a
Western man married an Indian wife it would be good for his spiritual
advancement, but if an Indian man married a western woman it would impede his spiritual advancement. This, of course is a generalization, I know some Indian women who are hell on wheels, but this is perhaps the effect of living in the West and associating with so-called liberated women.

As an astrologer part of the whole scheme is to match persons up in such a
way that there is gentle dealing between the two. If the wife is rebellious,
as they are now trained to be, it would require a whole "Taming of the
Shrew" to tame her.

Another point to consider is what is Srila Prabhupada's motivation for
discussing what Vedic Culture is like? "THAT IS NOT VEDIC SYSTEM. VEDIC
SYSTEM IS..." Was Srila Prabhupada a cultural anthropologist or Indologist
simply interested in old, dead cultures? Or was Srila Prabhupada teaching us
what it was that we should aspire to follow? Personally I think it is the later. But it appears that the purvas think it is the former.

Your humble servant
shyama
_____________________

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.3.13 -- LA, September 18, 1972 -- 720918SB.LA
[…]
So senses are so strong. Balavan indriya-gramah. It is prohibited. What to
speak of others. Therefore, the common moral teachings and the Vedic
civilization is to accept any woman except his own wife as mother. Matrvat
para-daresu. Para-daresu. Everyone is supposed to be married. Dara means
wife. Para-daresu, other's wife. It doesn't matter if she is younger or older, but she should be treated as mother. Therefore it is the system in Vedic culture, as soon as one sees another woman, she (he) addresses her, "mother," Mataji. Immediately, "mother." That makes the relationship. The
woman treats the unknown man as son, and the unknown man treats the unknown woman as mother. This is Vedic civilization. So we should be very careful. In our society, you are all Godbrothers, Godsisters. Or those who are
married, they are like mothers. So you should be very careful. Then you will
remain dhira, sober. That is brahminical qualification, brahminical culture.
Not that "Because I have got facilities to intermingle with nice girls, so I
shall take advantage and exploit them." Or the girls should take... No. Therefore our restriction: no illicit sex.

One has to become dhira. Then the question of God consciousness. Animals
cannot have God consciousness. Therefore it is specially mentioned dhiranam. Vartma. The path which He showed, that is meant for the dhira, not for the adhira. Dhiranam. And it is so nice that sarvasrama-namaskrtam. All asramas will appreciate and offer obeisances. ALL ASRAMA MEANS BRAHMACARI, GRHASTHA, VANAPRASTHA, AND SANNYASA. SO DEALING WITH WOMAN... ESPECIALLY INSTRUCTION ARE GIVEN TO MEN. ALL LITERATURES, ALL VEDIC LITERATURES, THEY ARE ESPECIALLY MEANT FOR INSTRUCTION TO THE MEN. WOMAN IS TO FOLLOW THE HUSBAND. THAT'S ALL. THE HUSBAND WILL GIVE INSTRUCTION TO THE WIFE. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE GIRL SHOULD GO TO SCHOOL TO TAKE BRAHMACARI-ASRAMA OR GO TO SPIRITUAL MASTER TO TAKE INSTRUCTION. THAT IS NOT VEDIC SYSTEM. VEDIC SYSTEM IS A MAN IS FULLY INSTRUCTED, AND WOMAN, GIRL, MUST BE MARRIED TO A MAN. EVEN THE MAN MAY HAVE MANY WIVES, POLYGAMY, STILL, EVERY WOMAN SHOULD BE MARRIED. AND SHE WOULD GET INSTRUCTION FROM THE HUSBAND. THIS IS VEDIC SYSTEM. WOMAN IS NOT ALLOWED TO GO TO SCHOOL, COLLEGE, OR TO THE SPIRITUAL MASTER. BUT HUSBAND AND WIFE, THEY CAN BE INITIATED. THAT IS VEDIC SYSTEM.

So dhiranam vartma. BECAUSE PEOPLE MUST BE FIRST OF ALL GENTLE. THEN TALK OF KRSNA AND GOD CONSCIOUSNESS. If he is animal, what he can understand? This is Vedic system. Dhiranam. Dhira means must be gentle, perfectly gentle. Must address all woman as "mother." Matrvat para-daresu para-dravyesu lostravat. This is the training, that one should consider other's wife as mother, and others' money as like garbage in the street. Nobody cares for it. Similarly, one's other's money should not be touched. Even it is somebody has forgotten his purse, moneybag on the street, nobody will touch it. Let the man come back and take it. That is civilization. Para dravyesu lostravat, atmavat sarva-bhutesu. And treating all other living entities as oneself. If somebody pinches me, I feel pain. Why shall I pinch other? If somebody cuts my throat, I become so sorry or so aggrieved. Why shall I cut the throat of other animals? This is civilization. This is Vedic civilization. And not that go on killing animals like anything and hunt upon the woman, topless woman, make business. This is not civilization. This is not human civilization.

Therefore it is called dhiranam. Those who are sober, for them. Those who
are rascals, not for them. The brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha sarvasrama,
asrama, this is meant for the gentle class, not for the rascals. First of all, training period as brahmacari. This brahmacari, he is taught. He is taught to address all women as "mother." The brahmacari goes to collect alms from door to door. Small boys. So how do they address? "Mother, kindly give us some alms." So immediately the household wife should come and give them.
They will collect like that, for spiritual master. So if a boy is taught...Just like our these children are being taught chanting Hare Krsna. They are chanting. They cannot forget throughout life. Similarly, if a brahmacari is taught from childhood, from boyhood address all woman as "mother," he cannot see otherwise. "S(he) is my mother." I REMEMBER, IT IS AN EXAMPLE. LONG AGO, SAY, IN 1925, LONG AGO, SO WE WERE IN A CINEMA HOUSE. SO MY ELDEST SON, AS SOON AS HE WOULD SEE ONE WOMAN IN THE PICTURE, "HERE IS ANOTHER MOTHER! HERE IS ANOTHER MOTHER!" (LAUGHTER) HE WOULD CRY. BECAUSE A SMALL CHILD, HE DOES NOT KNOW ANY WOMAN EXCEPT MOTHER. HE KNOWS EVERYONE AS "MY MOTHER." SO IF WE TRAIN FROM THE CHILDHOOD THAT "YOU SHOULD TREAT ALL WOMAN AS MOTHER," THEN WHERE IS THE QUESTION OF ANOMALIES? NO. THERE IS NO QUESTION. SO ONE SHOULD BE TRAINED FROM THE VERY BEGINNING HOW TO BECOME GENTLE. From the very beginning if one is taught to become ungentle, uncontrolled of senses, how at the end he can become gentle? And if the people are not gentle, how you can expect peace and prosperity? Therefore we see in your country, every house: "Beware of dog. Don't come here." Because... What is that? Because they cannot trust anybody. Anybody.

So this is not advancement of civilization. If you want to know what is
civilization, you have to learn here: dhiranam. In the Bhagavata the description is there. So actually, Vedic civilization is meant for the most
gentle, highly advanced, not for the cats and dogs.
Thank you very much. (end)(Text COM:1834636) -----------------------------------------

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