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| EDITORIAL December 8, 1998 VNN2634 See Related VNN Stories Just Try To Understand BY PRTHA DEVI DASI EDITORIAL, Dec 8 (VNN) — With all due respect, Guru-krsna dasa's comparison of discovering garbage on child molesters by the CTP to get "factual finding to disempower the perpetrator" and the attempt by the GHQ to discover garbage on members or supporters the IWM is not in the same category. The IWM or those who believe similar are not perpetrators, not propagating heinous activities but stopping them. However the disempowerment of women by the GHQ is a symptom of potential perpetrators and will result in woman and child abuse, which most definitely is heinous as such disempowerment gives men absolute authority and control. We all know absolute authority corrupts absolutely when it is not in the hands of the pure devotee. Their concept of harmony is like Hitler's. If you did whatever you were told to do by Hitler you would not be killed and would have the *best* life. Similarly, if you do whatever you are told to do by *your man* you will not be abused and will have so-called harmony. Guru-krsna dasa's states: "Mother Prtha has predicted that an attitude of, "Right or wrong, my husband is always right" would be the undesirable result of a social construction wherein male superiority is the accepted norm. She notes that women have already tried to apply this rule but that it didn't work. Yet our simple understanding is that so many things have not yet worked in our attempts to spread and establish Krsna consciousness; but the fault lies not in the principles, rather in the neglect or misapplication of the principles." One cannot compare what the GHQ is preaching to Krishna Consciousness. It is bodily concept, the caste system and has a lot in common with Hinduism. Guru- krsna dasa omitted my comment that such men have not done anything to prove themselves more qualified this time around. Interesting how attracted they are to this blind following of "my husband right or wrong, always right." No humility. They can never be wrong. A man who has no fear of loosing power, position or control does not have a problem with IWM doing their job and will even encourage it. Regarding women and freedom, we first need to understand what *freedom* means. If someone is looking to go wild and call it freedom, that is not true freedom. It is actually bondage. It seems going wild is the GHQ's definition. Devotee women are not speaking of this kind of freedom. It is unfortunate that some assume a devotee woman's idea of freedom is automatically non devotional and *maya* whereas they assume a man's idea of freedom is more likely to be Krishna Conscious. So little faith in their godsisters or wife. If a woman is following Prabhupada's instructions that is true freedom and no one has the right to use any philosophy in order to get in the way of that. She has the right as well as responsibility to follow Prabhupada according to her understanding of his instructions, not her husbands understanding of them. After all, she is not her husbands disciple or possession. She belongs to Krishna and Srila Prabhupada. Husband is not guru in this age otherwise Prabhupada would not have initiated women in the first place. One can't help but wonder if some men do not like the power and control Srila Prabhupada has over their wife and are trying to take that away. A chaste wife is one who is chaste to her spiritual master first. Husband comes second. If he is following correctly and has proper consciousness (no stinking thinking) it will only improve the marriage and therefore he should not mind. Some men (not all) use quotes to make their point that woman must not be given freedom or she will become degraded. First one must realize that as soon as a woman joined the movement she gave up this type of freedom. They did it without their husband *keeping an eye on them,* which indicates a lack of trust. Srila Prabhupada trusted them, why can't they? Seems they have a problem if they can't trust a devotee simply because that devotee is in a female body. In most cases women joined unmarried, came of their own accord, controlled their senses of their own accord. They continue to do that not because they have a husband or temple authority over them but because they have taken shelter of Srila Prabhupada. He gives ladies their strength to control their senses, not human being men. Reality check. As we look around this movement we can see it is not the women who have gone wild, molested children, etc. What makes such men think they do not need to give up freedoms? Too much abuse gone on in the name of refusing a woman her freedom. While Guru-krsna dasa takes my suggesting to focus not only on Prabhupada's books but also on his tapes and letters he still only focuses on the types of quotes that support his personal belief system and ignores those he dislikes. This is common of the GHQ. They hear what they want. Therefore the whole picture is not being presented. Such quotes are not new to women. It is not that the ladies were in ignorance of them and now we have been enlightened. No. These are the same old points we have been brainwashed with for years due to misuse of scripture while the other points of woman equality and further, aham brahmasmi, have been ignored, minimized or hidden. And they think the word protect means control. I suggest they get out their dictionaries. In addition, Guru-krsna das uses other quote where Prabhupada states there is no question of divorce, however there should also be no question of abuse or neglect. Prabhupada would not allow that either, yet it goes on and the expectation of these men is that a woman should stay even during this. It seems GHQ or men of similar mentality want to have freedom to do whatever they want while they expect a woman to stay in the marriage regardless of what he does to her. Otherwise they name call her unchaste, prostitute or irreligious. Such philosophies result in abuse where men can have absolute authority, uncontrolled senses including anger and sex, along with total freedom. *Their* definition of freedom. (Wild.) After all, there is no one for the husband to answer up to in that system. She becomes his property. Vedic? Well, she is the property of Srila Prabhupada and Krishna only. Husband is not guru in kali- yuga. GHQ and similar try very hard to put much responsibility for repairing a marriage on the women. In most cases she has already done her part. It is not as much up to her to stop the cycle of bad marriages and especially abuse as it is the men who abuse or neglect. Even Vedically a woman is not at fault and the man is. Men who view themselves as superior do not like to hear this and attempt to place the focus on the wife so no one will look at him. They speak against a women's independence or freedom often, though usually are feeling lesser than her, out of control, threatened and embarrassed by any ability she may have which he doesn't and (he thinks) make him look bad. Better such a man should try to make advancement also rather than keep her down on his level, which he could improve on if he was willing to do the work. Guru-krsna dasa and those of similar belief admit that men play a role in divorce also. This is used to dismiss or minimize the responsibility that they play in it. He states: "Another kind of child abuse is enacted by women irresponsibly divorce their God-given spouses for their own selfish purposes." This is a false statement. More often than not it is men who don't take their marriage seriously enough or pulled their weight. The wife and children have all too often been neglected or abused, including financial and medical abuse. Ask any gurukuli. This is another example of the GHQ blaming the woman for anything that goes wrong in a marriage or society in order to make themselves appear innocent. If one were to take statistics, findings would prove that it has been mostly the men in this movement who have been the biggest child abusers, not the women, and mostly the men who have ignored the wife, not the wife ignoring the husband. Women have been trained that they must serve the husband, men have been trained that women are maya devi's out to get them and children are bags of stool, like animals. Convenient misunderstandings of the philosophy. If Prabhupada were here divorces could be stopped. Since he is not here many men haven't taken on their responsibilities correctly or treated their family right. However, most men who hold a strong belief in male superiority are not humble enough to go to a marriage counselor, mediator or therapist to work problems through. Their belief is that they are just fine, nothing is wrong with them, it is her. They can do no wrong in a marriage. It is always the woman's fault. Such men usually have emotional problems. They accept no one as their authority. This is one of many factors that reveal their contribution toward the divorce. Women usually try everything first and only divorce men who behave in irreligious ways. To give the benefit of the doubt, many just don't know about divorce. They think it is the cause of what takes place afterwards. Some say, "Oh, they got a divorce. No WONDER this or that is going on." I wish to point out that what happens after the divorce is caused by what happened before it. The divorce itself had to be preceded by serious problems. Had someone (qualified) intervened it might have been avoided, but there is never a good reason for violence, including emotional violence or spiritual abuse. This philosophy that a wife should stay no matter what he does to her is an excuse to abuse. Therefore divorce is not the cause, it is the result. A Vedic man is suppose to protect, but in reality many will not come to the aid of their godbrothers wife, even if she is being hurt. They stick together and are loyal to each other. It is the women who are now offering such help, and I pray some sensible men will also join in and thank those who already have. A GHQ post I read pointed out how women are emotional beings so these men came up with a strategy to approach the ladies on an emotional level. They think that by using flattery, sweet talk or by being friendly that they can convert women. This is dishonest and for the purpose of manipulation and control. What little they know about us. We are devotees. To try to trick a devotee is nonsense. Interesting how they think they are not emotional beings yet they need women to boost their low-self esteem and emotions, what to speak of their neediness to have a woman (or two) to dominate. They obviously are reacting from a position of very strong emotions. Guru-krsna dasa feels that in many cases the issue of woman's role as subordinate is motivated by male ego and desire for exploitation of the female but that the converse is equally true. The answer to this would be that while everyone has such a weakness it is a fact that it has already been done on a larger scale by men. Though I must admit I find it interesting that when something has to do with a negative quality these men claim women are equal. One devotee explained to Srila Prabhupada a male devotee's opinion of chanting with women in the temple room. The devotee said: "I have seen this before, he says, ' I do not want to chant in a room with women. I'd rather be away from women.' " Srila Prabhupada responded strongly: '"That means he has got distinction between men and women. He is not a pandita. Pandita sama darsinah. He is a fool. That's all. He is a fool. He should always consider, 'There is a women, that's all right. She is my mother.' That's all. Matravat para dasesu. Suppose you sit down with your mother and chant. What is the wrong? But if he is not so strong, then he should go to the forest. Why should he live in the Nairobi city? On the street there are so many women. He'll walk on the street closing his eyes? This is all rascaldom. They are rascals. They are not devotees. Simply rascals." (Walk conversation 10/30/75) Srila Prabhupada: "In the Bhagavad-gita we find that women are also equally competent like the men in the matter of Krishna consciousness movement." (letter to Himavati, 1969) Guru-krsna dasa uses my quote where Prabhupada gave the instruction that we are not to read the Manu-samhita or we will fall to the position of mlecchas and yauvanas, yet he argues with Prabhupada by giving so-called good reason. The pure devotee has spoken. Finished. While it is true that Prabhupada has made the comments Guru-krsna dasa used about the Manu-samhita, we are only to read the parts of this literature he used in his books. Guru-krsna dasa quotes: 1) "The Manu-samhita is the standard lawbook for humanity, and every human being is advised to follow this great book of social knowledge." (SB 2.1.36) "2) "The law given by Manu is so perfect that it can be applicable for all time." (SSR 6" 3) "The conclusion is that if we want real peace and order in the human society, we must follow the principles laid down by the Manu-samhit and confirmed by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna." Srila Prabhupada wants us to become more than human being, to rise above it and become transcendentalists, as explained by His Divine Grace. He tells us how. Other scriptures don't. We are not to read scriptures which aren't translated by the pure devotee. In addition, when one looks at other points of the Manu-samhita there is no mercy. The punishment for a man who has illicit sex is so drastic and repulsive that I do not want to post it here! More quotes by Guru-krsna dasa: 1) "Now, in the Manu-samhita it is clearly stated that a woman should not be given freedom." (Bg 16.7, purport) 2) "Just like in Manu-samhita it is said that nasyam svatantryam arhati--woman should not be given independence. Once said, that is fact." (Conversation, New Delhi, 11/14/75) 3) "In Manu-samhita it is clearly said, na stri svantantryam arhati. Woman cannot be given independence." (SB Lecture, LA 5/19/72) However Prabhupada has also stated: "Canakya Pandita said not to trust those who do not control their senses, politicians and women. But this applies to non devotee women, not our women, because they do control their senses." Class in Los Angeles, 1972. Srila Prabhupada: "I was talking of materialistic women, not of the women of the movement. These are angels." Guru-krsna dasa points out my comment: "Mother Prtha also stated: ' When Srila Prabhupada speaks of the lower or inferior position of women, he is speaking of varnasrama-dharma social order in a Vedic system, not transcendental Krsna consciousness, which has entirely different instructions.' But below is a sample of how Srila Prabhupada equates Vedic culture with transcendental Krsna consciousness: 1)"Another name of Vedic culture is sanatana-dharma." (Lecture, Bombay, 11-2-70) 2)"So this culture, Krsna consciousness, Vedic culture....It is therefore called sanatana, eternal." (Conversation, Moscow, 6-22-71)" No one is aruging that Vedic is not sanatana-dharma. What is being stated, and Prabhupada himself has made such comments, is that there are higher and lower Vedic literatures and Vedic belief's. We are not interested in these lower scriptures but in the highest, which only Srila Prabhupada has translated. In addition, it was Prabhupada who stated: "The less intelligent class of men (avipascitah), attracted by the flowery language of the Vedas, engage in fruitive activities to become materially benefited." SB 4:20:39. Not to misunderstand. Vedic is good. However there are many Vedic persons in this world who are not Krishna Conscious such as mayavadis, impersonalists, Saivites and demigod worshipers. The Vedic literatures we need to follow are the highest of all Vedic literature: Srila Prabhupada's books not the Manu Samhita and these lesser scriptures. Srila Prabhupada, SB 1:1:3 "In the previous two slokas it has definitely proved that the Srimad Bhagavatam is the sublime literature which surpasses all other Vedic scriptures due to its transcendental qualities. It is transcendental to all mundane activities and mundane knowledge. In this sloka it is stated that Srimad Bhagavatam is not only superior literature but is the ripened fruit of all Vedic literatures. In other words, it is the cream of all Vedic knowledge." While we want Varnashrama dharma, we want it to be Krishna Conscious, not typical Varnashrama dharma. When Srila Prabhupada was explaining the various positions: sudra, vaisya, kstriya, brahmana, he was not telling us to identify with them. They are only duties that need to be done. If we start to believe this is who we are we put ourselves on the bodily platform. Then one thinks they are brahmana and they become conceited, another thinks they are sudra and they develop low self-esteem. However a Vaishnava can do anything for Krishna therefore the so-called sudra may clean the bathroom one day and do puja the next. The so-called brahmana may do puja one day and clean the bathroom the next. Varna and ashrama are about the caste system, a system Prabhupada was strongly against. If we start to identify with such roles we are no longer practicing pure Krishna Consciousness. Therefore believing women are sudra is merely caste system, not spiritual. Varnashrama is wanted, only it is cultural and not transcendental. That must be added. Krishna Consciousness is for all walks of life. Those who live in the country or the city, those who are preachers or farmers. No one has a superior way of practicing it. GHQ, who appear to be so inclined toward the superiority of varnashrama-dharma, are sexist. If it was superior it would have been what Prabhupada preached first. However he came here and immediately started preaching direct Krishna Consciousness. Varnashrama-dharma is merely a back up system. One can't help but wonder, with this strong interest in the varnas and the asramas, if the GHQ are also racist. Do they believe black men are an inferior, less intelligent lower sudra birth? I doubt they will answer that question. Further, Guru-krsna Das uses as proof the following: "And in "My Glorious Master," Bhurijana Prabhu recounts an incident wherein his good wife, Mother Jagattarini, after hearing Srila Prabhupada glorify the womanly role in Vedic culture, had replied, "But I've not been brought up in that culture." To which Srila Prabhupada explained," But if something is good you should accept it. I know in your Western countries the ideas are different, but we have to pick up the best." (MGM, 336)" No one is arguing this. Simply that it is being presented as the absolute truth and the only way, while it is only half the picture. It is possible, and most probable, that this is what Jagattarini, whom I know, wanted to do. Srila Prabhupada will encourage us in whatever direction we wish to go in. He is not so closed minded, trying to force us into a mold. This Krishna Consciousness is a process for people from all walks of life. Prabhupada has said many things, such as: Bhibavati asked Srila Prabhupada: "Should I live like in the Vedic times, and simply serve my husband and child?" Srila Prabhupada replied: "No, you have a talent as a writer, you should write articles for newspapers and propagate Krishna Consciousness." Again, Guru-krsna dasa makes his point: "Apparently, women are not allowed to wear the sacred thread because it is the symbolic representation of the *dvija*." While the sacred thread certainly is to be respected, I was told it was merely a matter of practicality that females do not wear one. It does not make men superior because they have a thread. Prabhupada did, after all, give gayatri mantra to women too. Srila Prabhupada: "I am very glad to know that you are engaged as pujari there. Try to learn the art of arcana very nicely..... I wish that all our girl devotees be expert in the matter of arcana." Letter to Kanchanbala, 1970. Many comments from Prabhupada have been used proving his instruction on the equality of women, yet when such quotes are used it is difficult for those to accept who believe they are superior simply because they are male. They give the excuses that Srila Prabhupada was only trying to give us encouragement, he really didn't mean it, or that he was merely making concessions for us American women. First, we cannot say what Prabhupada did or did not mean. While he sometimes would make statements simply to encourage and possibly didn't mean it, that is not always the case and often isn't. It is usually what we tell ourselves when we are not advanced enough to understand. We cannot speculate. No one really knows. Secondly, even from their point of view that Prabhupada gave instructions because we are American's, such instructions will bring us back to Godhead regardless. Therefore it does not matter in the least that he is not always giving Vedic instructions and only instructions for us American women. The goal is to get out of this material world and who dares to say their Vedic method is superior to Prabhupada's Krishna Conscious method which may not always be Vedic? "Sometimes jealous persons criticize the Krishna Consciousness movement because it engages equally both boys and girls in distribution of love of Godhead. Not knowing that boys and girls in countries like Europe and America mix very freely, these fools and rascals criticize the boys and girls in Krishna Consciousness for intermingling. But these rascals should consider that one cannot suddenly change a community's social customs. However, since both the boys and girls are being trained to become preachers, those girls are not ordinary girls but are as good as their brothers who are preaching Krishna Consciousness. Therefore to engage both boys and girls in fully transcendental activities is a policy intended to spread the Krishna Consciousness movement.... The results of this are wonderful. Both men and women are preaching the gospel of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Lord Krishna with redoubled strength... Therefore it is a principle that a preacher must strictly follow the rules and regulations laid down in the sastras yet at the same time devise a means by which the preaching work to reclaim the fallen may go with full force." Chaitanya Charitamrta A.L. Ch.7 purport of verses 32 and 38: Guru-krsna dasa states " Srila Prabhupada has repeatedly explained that polygamy is necessary for complete and thorough protection of the women of any society" What he is omitting is that these instruction was given prior to Prabhupada's last instruction on the subject, which was to cease and desist. Kali-yuga men are not that advanced. It surprises me that they think so highly of themselves. If they wish to follow instructions Prabhupada gave at first but later changed, they should not limit it only to those which please their senses. They should start to chant 64 rounds a day. One can protect without marrying. There should be no vested interests of this sort. A gentleman will be detached from the woman he helps, unless it is his wife (not wives). Instead they create web pages on polygamy hoping to get support in their maya so they won't be alone, to appeal to the lust within men of this movement so they won't look so lusty, to attract and entice them in this way as well as convince them it is religious. However, they are simply helping them to fall down. In a movement where Prabhupada has taught celibacy they are ignoring his final instruction against polygamy and claiming they are so advanced now that they can do it. No. Prabhupada's instructions do not change. These polygamists are simply revealing to the world how lusty they truly are. In the Letters book Prabhupada is against polygamy. A male devotee wrote to him asking permission for polygamy. Prabhupada told him that it was just lust and not to do this. The man was persistent and wrote a second letter to Prabhupada. He replied to the man again, giving the same instruction, and that if he was determined to do it he should not live on temple property. Many men want polygamy in the name of being Vedic, when that is not the true reason. It is lust. To properly practice polygamy one must be a pure devotee and a guru who is able to take his wife back to Godhead. As previously mentioned, husband is not guru in this age. No man is this advanced. It is interesting, however, that GHQ believes in polygamy for kali-yuga men yet name call woman prostitutes who remarry. Certainly I am not advocating remarriage, but it happens. Should we condemn such a woman to the eternal hell fire? And what about the man she was married to? Is he always the innocent party? He isn't called such names and more often than not, in this movement it has been the men falling short of their marital responsibilities. (Not all of course.) Therefore most women aren't getting divorced because they are unchaste. No. They are getting a divorce because of the degree of maya her husband is in, and abuse, including verbal, is maya too. It is often the only way she had left to be protected. However, this belief that she is a prostitute if she remarries while a man can accumulate a harem is hypocritical. There are so many wonderful and advanced devotee women in this movement who have remarried and anyone who calls them a prostitute, or even just classifies their activity as prostitution, is making a grave offense. Of course remarriage is not first class. No one wants it. The women who get divorced don't plan to go out and look for another husband. They are just trying to survive. However, Prabhupada said it is not good, he did not say one can't go back to Godhead if they divorce and remarry. I know of a sannyasi who remarried and had Prabhupada's permission. Vedically a sannyasi who remarries goes to a horrible type of hell, yet Srila Prabhupada would not give permission for something that would send a devotee to hell. So it may be along the lines of "if you can't do this, do that, etc." I was taught Prabhupada's instructions are to do whatever you have to do to stay in this movement. If remarriage is what must be done, no one should criticize unless they wish to get personally involved and help that woman without polygamy or any other form of sense gratification, control or possession. Pure desires only. Men who put too much focus on women, what women should do, what they shouldn't do, they should be considered sudra, how they should treat their husband, they should stay home, etc., are often having a problem with attraction and repulsion. They are, in fact, VERY attracted to the form of woman who they also cannot figure her out. She mystifies him. He usually does not have good relationship skills and is frustrated, blaming it on her. Thus the need to control what he doesn't understand, the need to compete, to conquer, to possess. These men think more about women than about the holy names. Their hearts reveal where their interests are: Women. Some even organize or participate in an entire conference and conspiracy about women! While they may claim it is for the purpose of social anomalies as divorce/remarriage, irresponsibility of spouses, and moral integritynsavory facts, in reality the focus is on women. If they thought of Krishna as much as they think of the female species they would be pure devotees. This is not an excuse to discontinue woman protection. Matter of fact, women are especially going to need protection from the GHQ or similar, which are trying to disempower them. Disempowerment leads to abuse and neglect as we have already seen. Therefore sensible sane men need to get actively involved and support or help the IWM and ladies of this movement, appropriately of course. It is not that women are only protected if a man can get something out of her, even if it is something emotional such as elevating his low self- esteem. No. Woman protection is part of Krishna Consciousness whether it pleases the senses of men or not. The woman does not have to behave or believe a certain way to be qualified for protection. While it isn't as much our duty, even non devotee women should not be abused. Guru-krsna dasa points out: "Mother Prtha concludes by saying: "It will be hard for those who have spent one-half a lifetime believing they are superior to admit they made a mistake. But not so difficult for those who properly study and apply the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. For while cultivating the mood of servitor to all, hence inferior, still a Krsna conscious man will not artificially relinquish his God-given superior position as maintainer and guide for dependent wives, children, and other subordinates." However they themselves are not properly studying or applying the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. So similar to Hinduism where the Hindu believes he is brahman simply because he was born brahmana. Prabhupada has explained how one must first qualify themself as brahmana, it is not an automatic birth right. Prabhupada has also explained that we are not so interested in becoming brahmana but that we are to become Vaishnava. Similarly men must qualify themselves if they think they can become superior. Still, it remains a fact that in kali yuga everyone is sudra: Kalau sudra sambhavah. A point that seems to be ignored or minimized. Since everything is backwards in kali-yuga one can't help but wonder if it is the men of the GHQ who are less intelligent. Finally, what needs to be recognized is that what these men are propagating really has nothing to do with their spiritual beliefs, it has to do with their woman hatred. GHQ tries very hard to keep women down and on the bodily platform with their concept of male superiority which makes them feel their power, makes them feel better (low-self esteem), etc. They are presenting the caste system to empower themselves. It's not spiritual and certainly is not transcendental Krishna Consciousness. Everyone is equal and a devotee of the Lord in Krishna in Consciousness. "So far as girls or boys lecturing in the morning, that does not make any difference. Either girl or boy devotee may deliver lecture if they choose to do. We have no such distinction of bodily designations, male or female. Krishna consciousness is on the spiritual platform. As such, anyone who is a devotee of the Lord, following in this line of disciplic succession, can deliver lecture on the teachings of Bhagavad-gita, Srimad Bhagavatam, etc." Letter to Shyma devi dasi 1968 "You can also keep giving Bhagavatam class if yo u like. Women in our movement can also preach very nicely. Actually male and female bodies, these are just outward designations., Lord Chaitanya said that whether one is brahmana or whatever he may be, if he knows the science of Krishna, then he is to be accepted as guru." Letter to Malati, 1974. I pray these men will just try to understand, instead of trying so hard *not* to understand. Our movement is constantly being watched by outsiders such as the police, psychologists, even the NY Times. Imagine what damage they can do if this nonsense is allowed to continue. Or someone may write book on their experiences as the wife of a Hare Krishna male chauvinist. I hope some authorities will step in and put a stop to the GHQ while they still can. Thank you for your time. Hare Krishna. Your Servant, Prtha devi dasi See Related VNN Stories This story URL: http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9812/ET08-2634.html
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