03/23/98 - 1709

Now don't Waste Your Time with this Crows and Tal-fruit Logic

USA (VNN) - by Agrahya das (from VNN Forums)

Dear Mother Pracetana,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

I agree fully with your understanding of this issue. I am more concerned with "are we arguing against Srila Prabhupada" and "are we neglecting Srila Prabhupada's books" and "are we reading Srila Prabhupada's books but not trying to gain the essence, but seeking support for our philosophy?"

So the "Crows and tal-fruit" paper is presented as an essay on "we fell from Krishna's pastimes." I understand it as "Now don't waste your time with this crows and tal-fruit logic."

Here is my response (which I sent to Chakra) titled Now don't waste your time with this crows and tal-fruit logic:

I noted that Srila Prabhupada's essay on the logic of the crow and the tal-fruit was presented as the siddhanta regarding the origin of the jiva, as given by Srila Prabhupada. I therefore read with great interest Dravida Prabhu's piece explaining why this is taken above explanations in Srila Prabhupada's books.

Without meaning any disrespect, I was quite alarmed by one statement. Dravida Prabhu quotes one of the many references in Srila Prabhupada's books where His Divine Grace says emphatically that the living entity DOES NOT FALL from the spiritual world. Then it appears that Dravida Prabhu suggests that we can brush aside such references:

Setting aside that one can easily find at least ten times as many
passages in Srila Prabhupada's books supporting the fall position than
negating it (SB 4.28.53 and subsequent verses, with their purports,
constitute a definitive example), the simple fact is that Crow-and Tal
is not a letter!

I have a problem with the arithmetic here. Excerpted below are a number of quite direct statements. Applying the minimum 10:1 ratio suggested here, there should be at least 80-100 direct statements in Srila Prabhupada's books saying "living entities sometimes come under the influence of maya and fall from Krishna's pastimes." However, I am not aware of even one such statement. Proponents of the "fall from Krishna's pastimes" position occasionally cite some references from Srila Prabhupada's books, but these are generally used in an indirect way and do not directly support the notion of the living entity falling from Krishna's pastimes.

We will examine the single example of 4.28.53 in a later discussion, but I think that this extraordinary claim of 10 "fall" for every 1 "no-fall" statements needs some support.

Dravida Prabhu further suggests:

Therefore, to go back now and raise new doubts about this issue is to
deny Srila Prabhupada the ability to resolve them with the
Crow-and-Tal paper.

I think the question is more precisely this: what IS Srila Prabhupada resolving in the Crow-and-Tal-fruit paper? And why are we apparently denying him the ability to resolve this important issue in his books, quite a large number of which were produced after 1972? Srila Prabhupada did say, "I have given everything in my books," and I take this as a very significant statement.

Dravida Prabhu suggests that the main point is this:

Please re-read Srila Prabhupada's Crow-and-Tal-Fruit essay (available
here on CHAKRA, under Top Stories, as "Srila Prabhupada on Jiva") and
accept as an irrevocable point of philosophy its conclusion:

"Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport."

This is his understanding of the essence or conclusion of Srila
Prabhupada's essay, that "Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya,
he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that
before that even he was with Krsna."

However, as suggested by the deliberate title, I understand the essence of this essay to be something different. There is at least one primary point and some secondary points. The primary point, illustrated by the titular logic aphorism (which is a well-known aphorism in traditional nyaya or logic), is understood by me as this:

"What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the
Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in
neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and
go there, never mind what is your origin." Later, "Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find
out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the
disease."

Srila Prabhupada also has the last word on the matter by
recapitulating the conclusion in the last few sentences of the essay:
"Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is
covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this
clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business
to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit
is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not
bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now
don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and
tal-fruit logic."

There are some significant secondary points as well. Many fine points given here by Srila Prabhupada seem to be pruned away in the eagerness to support a particular conclusion. Here are additional points I have gleaned from this essay by Srila Prabhupada:

1. Separation from Krishna under the influence of maya is illusory.
"We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna."
Elsewhere, "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna." In
other words, at no time can someone say "I am not with Krishna." It
is because of maya that we see ourselves separate. The statement
"Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport." is explained in
one letter to Jagadish, written in 1970, excerpted below.

2. The living entity is of the marginal potency. "Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide." This does not necessarily imply that living entities become influenced by maha-maya and fall from Krishna's pastimes. There are many, many statements on the marginality of the living entity, who is by nature of the taTastha or marginal potency, but where is the connection that says, "therefore these marginal entities WILL fall EVEN FROM the spiritual world."

3. The evidence of the living entity falling from the spiritual
world is found in the Bhagavatam: "So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya." This is probably the most significant of these secondary points for us, particularly when we consider that if there was any opportunity to expand upon this understanding Srila Prabhupada would certainly do so in his Bhaktivedanta purports to the story of Jaya and Vijaya. The fact is that he most certainly did so. Any understanding of "We were with Krishna in His lila or sport" should focus on Srila Prabhupada's books where they address this.

4. There is no permanence to brahma-sAyujya. "This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss."

5. Our only hope is to become Krishna conscious. "But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead."

6. Even within this material world, we are not separate from Krishna and _serving_ His pastimes. "Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative."

How we divide up these various points is really academic. But I think that we should not neglect the emphasis that appears to be given by Srila Prabhupada in the final sentence of this essay, as reproduced in the title of this response.

I have repeatedly emphasized in my own writings on this topic that the important point, as emphasized by Srila Prabhupada, is exactly this: what difference does it make where you fell from? Develop your Krishna consciousness and go there.

Of far greater concern is the implicit neglect of statements in Srila Prabhupada's books such as those cited below.

SB 3.15.48
PURPORT:
'From Vedic scriptures it is understood that sometimes even Brahma and
Indra fall down, but a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord
never falls.'

SB 3.16.26
PURPORT
'The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or
Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.'

SB 5.11.12
PURPORT
'This ordinary living being is of two kinds -- nitya-baddha or
nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally
liberated. The eternally liberated living beings, are in the Vaikuntha
jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material
world.'

SB 1.5.19
PURPORT
'Pure devotional service is so spiritually relishable that a devotee
becomes automatically uninterested in material enjoyment. That is the
sign of perfection in progressive devotional service. A pure devotee
continuously remembers the lotus feet of Lord Sri Krishna and does not
forget Him even for a moment, not even in exchange for all the
opulence of the three worlds.'

SB 3.25.29
PURPORT
'Sometimes it is asked how the living entity falls down from the
spiritual world to the material world. Here is the answer. Unless one
is elevated to the Vaikuntha planets, directly in touch with the
Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is prone to fall down, either from
the impersonal Brahman realization or from an ecstatic trance of
meditation.'

Madhya-lila 22.14-15
PURPORT
'The living entities are divided into two categories the eternally
liberated and eternally conditioned. Those who are ever-liberated
never come in contact with maya, the external energy. The
ever-conditioned are always under the clutches of the external energy.
This is described in Bhagavad-gita:

daive hy ena guna-maye
mama maya duratyaya


"This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material
nature, is difficult to overcome." (Bg. 7.14)

The nitya-baddhas are always conditioned by the external energy, and
the nitya-muktas never come in contact with the external energy.'

Adi-lila 2.117
PURPORT
'False devotees, lacking the conclusion of transcendental knowledge,
think that artificially shedding tears will deliver them. Similarly,
other false devotees think that studying books of the previous acaryas
is unadvisable, like studying dry empiric philosophies. But Srila Jiva
Gosvami, following the previous acaryas, has inculcated the
conclusions of the scriptures in the six theses called the
Sat-sandarbhas. False devotees who have very little knowledge of such
conclusions fail to achieve pure devotion for want of zeal in
accepting the favorable directions for devotional service given by
self-realized devotees. Such false devotees are like impersonalists,
who also consider devotional service no better than ordinary fruitive
actions.'

Krishna Book, Chapter 28,
Releasing Nanda Maharaja from the clutches of Varuna (p. 186)
'The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krishna
consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where
Krishna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first
opportunity to associate with Krishna personally and directly.'

SB 7.1.34
TRANSLATION
'Maharaja Yudhisthira inquired: "What kind of great curse could affect
even liberated vishnu-bhaktas, and what sort of person could curse
even the Lord's associates? For unflinching devotees of the Lord to
fall again to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe
this."

PURPORT
In Bhagavad-gita (8.16) the Lord clearly states, mam upetya tu
kaunteya punar janma na vidyate: one who is purified of material
contamination and returns home, back to Godhead, does not return to
this material world. Elsewhere in Bhagavad-gita (4.9) Krishna says:

janma karma ca me divyam
evam yo vetti tattvatah
tyaktva deham punar janma
naiti mam eti so 'rjuna


"One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and
activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in
this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Maharaja
Yudhisthira, therefore, was surprised that a pure devotee could return
to this material world. This is certainly a very important question.'

SB 7.1.35
TRANSLATION
'The bodies of the inhabitants of Vaikuntha are completely spiritual,
having nothing to do with the material body, senses, or life air.
Therefore, kindly explain how associates of the Personality of Godhead
were cursed to descend in material bodies like ordinary persons.

PURPORT
Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended
to this material world, they came because there was something to be
done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact
that no one falls from Vaikuntha.'

(Quotations Copyright (C) BBTI)

In conclusion, I would like to suggest that Srila Prabhupada did in fact have more to say on the issue of "we were with Krishna in His lila or sport," and that he did in fact address this in his purports to the Seventh Canto. But to me, the main issue is simply that he
did not consider this a significant issue. To me, a far greater concern is whether we are in fact all in agreement on the paramount importance of Srila Prabhupada's books.

So while I am a conditioned soul and my realization of siddhanta may be flawed in so many ways, I have no difficulty in reconciling all these various statements from Srila Prabhupada. There is not a single statement by Srila Prabhupada that should be brushed aside or disregarded. This is what concerns me, not where I fell from.

I'd like to end with a relevant quote from a letter where Srila Prabhupada addresses the issue of "we were with Krishna:"

Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen
Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the
desire to lord it over material nature?

Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus
they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must
have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb
of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme
Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the
condition called susupti which is exactly like deep sleep without
dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being
with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged
in material affairs. (Srila Prabhupada letter to Jagadish, 1970)


Vaishnava dasanudas,
Agrahya das http://hgsoft.com/~agrahya