03/11/98 - 1685

Srila Prabhupada's Books Are As Good As Shastra

USA (VNN) - by Agrahya das (see also VNN story# 1682)

All glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga. All glories to Srila
Prabhupada.

I noted with interest a recent article which brought out quotations from Srila Prabhupada in an attempt to support the theory that living entities do fall from Krishna's pastimes.

My interest in this is not in the debate itself. The origin of the jiva is a rather pointless topic. Srila Prabhupada once illustrated the pointlessness of it by relating the kAka-tAlIya-nyAya, or the logic of the crow and the tal fruit. Who cares how I became conditioned, I want to become situated in my constitutional position of service to Krishna.

My interest in this discussion is that Srila Prabhupada's books are being disregarded. There are a number of references in Srila Prabhupada's books to whether living entities fall from Vaikuntha. Why should they be ommitted from the article by Kailash Chandra Prabhu, or from the OOP book (Our Original Position)? Let's examine some of these quotations first:

SB 3.15.48
PURPORT:
'From Vedic scriptures it is understood that sometimes even Brahma and
Indra fall down, but a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord
never falls.'

SB 3.16.26
PURPORT
'The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or
Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.'

SB 5.11.12
PURPORT
'This ordinary living being is of two kinds -- nitya-baddha or
nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally
liberated. The eternally liberated living beings, are in the Vaikuntha
jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material
world.'

SB 1.5.19
PURPORT
'Pure devotional service is so spiritually relishable that a devotee
becomes automatically uninterested in material enjoyment. That is the
sign of perfection in progressive devotional service. A pure devotee
continuously remembers the lotus feet of Lord Sri Krishna and does not
forget Him even for a moment, not even in exchange for all the
opulence of the three worlds.'

SB 3.25.29
PURPORT
'Sometimes it is asked how the living entity falls down from the
spiritual world to the material world. Here is the answer. Unless one
is elevated to the Vaikuntha planets, directly in touch with the
Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is prone to fall down, either from
the impersonal Brahman realization or from an ecstatic trance of
meditation.'

Madhya-lila 22.14-15
PURPORT
'The living entities are divided into two categories the eternally
liberated and eternally conditioned. Those who are ever-liberated
never come in contact with maya, the external energy. The
ever-conditioned are always under the clutches of the external energy.
This is described in Bhagavad-gita:

daive hy ena guna-maye
mama maya duratyaya


"This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material
nature, is difficult to overcome." (Bg. 7.14)

The nitya-baddhas are always conditioned by the external energy, and
the nitya-muktas never come in contact with the external energy.'

Adi-lila 2.117
PURPORT
'False devotees, lacking the conclusion of transcendental knowledge,
think that artificially shedding tears will deliver them. Similarly,
other false devotees think that studying books of the previous acaryas
is unadvisable, like studying dry empiric philosophies. But Srila Jiva
Gosvami, following the previous acaryas, has inculcated the
conclusions of the scriptures in the six theses called the
Sat-sandarbhas. False devotees who have very little knowledge of such
conclusions fail to achieve pure devotion for want of zeal in
accepting the favorable directions for devotional service given by
self-realized devotees. Such false devotees are like impersonalists,
who also consider devotional service no better than ordinary fruitive
actions.'

Krishna Book, Chapter 28,
Releasing Nanda Maharaja from the clutches of Varuna (p. 186)
'The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krishna
consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where
Krishna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first
opportunity to associate with Krishna personally and directly.'

SB 7.1.34
TRANSLATION
'Maharaja Yudhisthira inquired: "What kind of great curse could affect
even liberated vishnu-bhaktas, and what sort of person could curse
even the Lord's associates? For unflinching devotees of the Lord to
fall again to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe
this."

PURPORT
In Bhagavad-gita (8.16) the Lord clearly states, mam upetya tu
kaunteya punar janma na vidyate: one who is purified of material
contamination and returns home, back to Godhead, does not return to
this material world. Elsewhere in Bhagavad-gita (4.9) Krishna says:

janma karma ca me divyam
evam yo vetti tattvatah
tyaktva deham punar janma
naiti mam eti so 'rjuna


"One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and
activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in
this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." Maharaja
Yudhisthira, therefore, was surprised that a pure devotee could return
to this material world. This is certainly a very important question.'

SB 7.1.35
TRANSLATION
'The bodies of the inhabitants of Vaikuntha are completely spiritual,
having nothing to do with the material body, senses, or life air.
Therefore, kindly explain how associates of the Personality of Godhead
were cursed to descend in material bodies like ordinary persons.

PURPORT
Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended
to this material world, they came because there was something to be
done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact
that no one falls from Vaikuntha.'

(Quotations Copyright (C) BBTI)

There are two things we may consider here:

1. These quotations are not relevant to a discussion of the origin of the jiva. This can be easily rejected by examining the quotes. It is hard to overlook their directness and relevancy.

2. These quotations are inconvenient as they do not support the theory that living entities fall from Krishna's abode, 'that place from which, having gone, one does not return.'

There are a small number of quotes from Srila Prabhupada's books cited in the article. In none of them is there any reference to jivas falling from the Lord's abode. The author has emphasized phrases which refer to the potential for the jiva to fall. But nowhere has Srila Prabhupada said, "the cowherd boys sometimes fall down," or "the gopis sometimes fall down." Such statements were never made by His Divine Grace and to make such considerations would be a great offense to the Lord's eternal devotees and an offense at the lotus feet of bhakti.

The author asserts that the "few" quotations given above which "appear" to support that the jiva does not fall from the Lord's abode were invented by Srila Prabhupada and placed in his books to "soften the blow" of a brand new philosophy which differs from that of our previous acaryas.

We would like to suggest that rather than throwing out all the previous acaryas in favor of a fanciful interpretation such as this, we can easily reconcile the apparent contradiction. When there appears to be a contradiction, we are enjoined by shastra not to throw out the part that doesn't "fit" but to seek an understanding by which the apparent contradictions may be harmonized. In other words, the defect is in our understanding, not in Srila Jiva Goswami or any of our previous acaryas.

The apparent contradiction is not between Srila Prabhupada and the Gaudiya Math, as Kailash Chandra Prabhu and others would have us believe. It is only by disregarding a substantial number of statements by Srila Prabhupada that we might think he supported the idea that jivas fall from Krishna's abode.

In short, this idea of "fall from Krishna's abode" is presented based on statements in letters and room conversations, and is reinforced with references to the potential for the jiva to fall under the influence of maya. But we understand this also in terms of the nature of the Lord's abode, in which there is no influence of maya. It is only under Maya's influence that the living entity can have any conception of separate existence from the Lord.

There is a very important point to consider here, which the discussion of origin of the jiva is only tangential to. Srila Prabhupada heavily emphasized his books. "I have put everything in my books." Who are we to doubt His Divine Grace? In his books we also find references to the Sandarbhas, Brihad-Bhagavatamrita, and other bonafide literatures. Should we neglect them, thinking they are not part of Srila Prabhupada's books? They ARE in Srila Prabhupada's books! So why are we ignoring parts of Srila Prabhupada's books? Why are we trying to contradict Srila Prabhupada's books by quoting letters, room conversations, and even unbonafide books like Advaita Prakash? Do we not have faith in his books?

The author suggests that controversy should not be avoided. This is true, as stated by Srila Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami. It is unfortunate that in some sections all debate and discussion of the "jiva controversy" has been banned. It is unfortunate in the sense that some of these statements reveal a disregard for Srila Prabhupada's books. They should be the centerpiece of our understanding of Krishna consciousness. If we examine the quotes given regarding fall from the Lord's abode we will see there is in fact NO FALL FROM THE SPIRITUAL WORLD.

Proponents of the "fall from Vaikuntha" theory like to say that their opponents are mayavadis for suggesting the jivas fall from the tatastha region as suggested in Jaiva-dharma. This is typically misrepresented, and this persists as represented recently in one letter to me from an Iskcon guru and GBC member.

If we have faith in Srila Prabhupada's books and remain true to ourselves and true to Srila Prabhupada's mission, there can be no bewilderment from such things. We will instead find harmony and inspiration. We will not find a need to invent fanciful interpretations of Srila Prabhupada and his mission. We can accept him as an eternally liberated associate of the Lord, a Rupanuga, a follower of Srila Rupa Goswami. He claimed that he did not invent anything. He gave us the philosophy "as it is." Many of us do not need any more proof than that. We do not need to concoct new terminology to make Srila Prabhupada into something "more." We do not need to make his books into something "more" than they are. They are as good as shastra. He is as good as God, because he is a topmost confidential servitor of the Lord. We will surely commit offense if we think we will glorify him by awarding him some new titles. Does he need our rubber-stamp approval and awarding of titles?

The author makes the statement:

Ever get the idea that mixing the flowery discussions of personal svarupa with Krishna along with the impersonal origination theory is a bit of a rasabhasa? Ever consider that listening to such presentations, or reading them, may be counterproductive to advancement on the path of sadhana bhakti? In what direction do these kinds of talks or writings take us--up or down? Are they truly pleasing to the heart?

We should in fact consider the following:

1. Is it possibly offensive to disregard Srila Prabhupada's books and re-interpret them based on statements in letters and room conversations? Did he want us to do this?
2. Is it possibly rasabhasa to consider that the eternally liberated associates of Krishna sometimes fall?
3. Is it possibly highly offensive to think that the eternally liberated associates of Krishna sometimes fall?
4. Will it possibly impede our development of bhakti to doubt the statement "once having gone there, one never returns?"
5. Can we consider that it is blasphemy to suggest that the Lord's eternal associates DO fall from His abode? For example, is it blasphemous to equate the curses exchanged between Sudama and Vrindadevi with the fall of conditioned souls?
6. Will it possibly impede our development of bhakti to hear blasphemy of Srila Prabhupada and the Lord's eternal associates without strongly denouncing it?
7. Will taking to an understanding of such things lead us up or down?
8. Is it pleasing to the heart to promote this philosophy of "fall from Vaikuntha?"

Sometimes we will hear statements which are averse to the development of pure devotional service. If we do not strongly reject such statements we may certainly become affected.

Srila Prabhupada's books are as good as shastra. We should take them as is with whole-hearted enthusiasm and faith. We should not disregard parts which do not support our views but we should seek harmony. There is one verse which describes siddhanta in this way:

vyAmohAya carAcarasya jagatas te te purANAgamAs tAM tAm eva hi devatAM paramikAM jalpantu kalpAvadhi siddhAnte punar eka eva bhagavAn viSNuH samastAgamA vyApAreSu vivecana-vyatikarAM nIteSu nizcIyate

To bewilder all moving and non-moving living beings, the different Puranas and scriptures each present some different worshipable deity. Let the wranglers argue until the end of the world! But in the siddhanta, we find again and again that Vishnu is the one and only Supreme personality. Leading all the various scriptures to their conclusions with discrimination and care we ascertain this.

Thus if we seek to understand Srila Prabhupada's books, we must take everything in context and always seek an understanding which does not contradict any part of his teachings.

This short presentation has only briefly touched on a few points. The main point here is that we should not disregard or doubt very clear statements made in Srila Prabhupada's books, nor should we try to disprove them using quotes taken out of context from his letters and room conversations.

There is an excellent presentation on this topic by HH B.B. Vishnu
Maharaja at
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/vishnu_mj/articles/jiva/jiva-tattva.html

Hare Krishna.

Vaishnava dasanudas,
Agrahya das
http://hgsoft.com/~agrahya

'Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya
descended to this material world, they came because there was
something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha.'
(SB 7.1.35 purport)

Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen
Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to
lord it over material nature?

Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus
they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must
have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of
the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father.
But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition
called susupti which is exactly like deep sleep without dream,
or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna
when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material
affairs.
(Srila Prabhupada letter to Jagadish, 1970)