02/20/98 - 1629

Indian Students Interview a Disciple of Srila Prabhupada

India (VNN) - Author's name withheld on request

Student: Prabhu, can you explain the guru issue in ISKCON? What’s it all about, in your opinion?

Disciple: The disagreement is between those who feel Srila Prabhupada’s final order should be followed even now and those who think the order is now null and void.

Student: Why would his order be null and void?

Disciple: The GBC thinks that when Srila Prabhupada left this world, this particular order of his, his final order to all ISKCON leaders, became void.

Student: That’s it? That’s the issue?

Disciple: Yes. A related point is this: the GBC authorizes devotees to initiate their own disciples in ISKCON, although Srila Prabhupada never told them to do this. We find no instruction from Srila Prabhupada to discontinue the system for initiations he ordered. In fact, he insisted that all his management systems remain unchanged.

Student: Prabhupada gave no later instruction that could be interpreted as a nullification of his other instruction on initiations?

Disciple: No. That’s why it’s called “His Final Order”. Why would he want to nullify a system that was working fine? It was a method that had worked great for years. Many of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples had no physical contact with him. He taught us that we should associate with him and accept him by hearing his instructions and following his vani. He taught that anyone could become his disciple by following his instructions. So we’re asking, “Why doesn’t ISKCON follow Srila Prabhupada’s Final Order, which he sent to all its leaders?”

Student: This is interesting. Then there was no order for those first 11 men to become diksa-gurus in ISKCON? Nothing?

Disciple: No. They became diksa-gurus in ISKCON on their own initiative. They assumed that after Srila Prabhupada’s departure, no one else could accept him as guru. They assumed that only disciples chosen as ritviks in Srila Prabhupada’s final order would function as diksa-gurus in ISKCON after his departure and that only the chosen disciples of these eleven could succeed them as ISKCON gurus in the future.

Student: But that idea changed?

Disciple: Yes. Later, when there was an uprising, they changed this idea. They realized the final order was not an appointment of diksa-gurus.. But now the GBC says any disciple can act as diksa-guru in ISKCON by self-appointment and a GBC approval process -- if his guru is dead.

Student: Does everyone agree that the spiritual principles to be followed for being accepted as an initiated ISKCON devotee are the same now as before?

Disciple: I hope so.

Student: What, then, exactly is Srila Prabhupada’s final order? What does it mean?

Disciple: By this order, Srila Prabhupada set up a system for formalizing initiations in ISKCON -- a system that no longer required his physical presence. He authorized representatives to accept disciples on his behalf.

Student: Well, this order, it’s clear?

Disciple: Well, yes. I mean, do you think Srila Prabhupada’s order might be unclear sometimes?

Student: No, I mean our brains are so dull in this age...

Disciple: Srila Prabhupada understands our dull brains. His order or his words are full of transcendental potency, just like the holy names of Lord Caitanya and Lord Krishna. But it remains our duty to carefully study Srila Prabhupada’s books and instructions without motive.

Student: I see. You have done that?

Disciple: I’ve tried. I’ve attended or given over 6,000 Srimad-Bhagavatam classes, heard thousands of hours of Srila Prabhupada’s tapes, and read most of Srila Prabhupada’s books 20-plus times. My motive was to purify my consciousness. Anyway, the order Srila Prabhupada sent out, even from a legal point of view, is clear. Yet the GBC tried to interpret the order. When that didn’t work, they rejected it.

Student: Then the contention at present is the time frame in which the order is meant to function?

Disciple: Exactly. The GBC says, “Trash this order.” We say, “Worship His Final Order on the altar with Sri Sri Radha-Krsna and Srimad-Bhagavatam.” They say, “It’s a temporary instruction for accepting a few devotees who were ready to be initiated at that moment in July 1977 or shortly thereafter.” We say, “His final order is monumental -- part of Lord Caitanya’s transcendental arrangement for assuring that His sankirtana mission will be perfectly established worldwide.”

Student: What exactly does Prabhupada say in the document about the time frame for this order?

Disciple: Here. Read it yourself. Tell me what you think? (One minute pause...) So what’s your legal opinion ?

Student: His instruction is clear. When he says “henceforward,” that can only mean “from now onwards,” or “forever”. If there is no later order that nullifies this one, it should remain a legal document for ISKCON.

Disciple: One of the law professors here had the same opinion. He said the term “henceforward” must be accepted literally. He wrote a legal opinion on this. But the GBC says literal acceptance of this order is impossible because it would violate Vedic tradition if a Vaisnava acarya accepted disciples after his disappearance.

Student: Is that true?

Disciple: That’s never been established. Why should we consult Vedic tradition to find a way to avoid Srila Prabhupada’s clear order -- even if the order appears to violate Vedic tradition? The Vaisnava tradition is transcendental to Vedic tradition, which is mostly mundane. But no one can say Srila Prabhupada’s system for initiations is a violation of any Vedic tradition. Vedic tradition aims ultimately at helping people accept a Vaisnava acarya such as Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada created ISKCON for that purpose. His final order was meant to serve the ultimate purpose of Vedic tradition, which is to give conditioned souls the opportunity to accept a paramahamsa Vaisnava guru and go back to Godhead.

Student:To hear you explain it, it sounds simple. Yet we hear objections to these proposals to make Prabhupada the only diksa-guru in Iskcon. It gets confusing.

Disciple: When we’re sincere to follow Srila Prabhupada, we hear from him very carefully. Then he helps us. He is helping us.

Student: Through his disciples?

Disciple: Yes. His books, disciples, orders, institutions, temples, journals, tapes -- all are his vani in different forms. Do any of you know some of the GBC objections to doing what Srila Prabhupada ordered?

Student: Someone said that if devotees remain only as representatives of the acarya rather than become diksa-gurus themselves, the sampradaya will end.

Disciple: Why’s that?

Student: Because there would be no more diksa-gurus on the physical plane.

Disciple: Lord Caitanya came to give prema-bhakti to everyone. He came Himself and sent His best devotees for this purpose. Srila Prabhupada’s instructions are the most empowered and effective formula for fulfilling Lord Caitanya’s mission. A representative of Srila Prabhupada may become almost as pure as Srila Prabhupada but first he will need to understand his position as disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada’s actual disciples are gurus -- qualified to instruct and initiate on his behalf. We need millions of such gurus.

Student: Everyone should be guru, but on behalf of Srila Prabhupada?

Disciple: Everyone should try to be Srila Prabhupada’s genuine follower. Then you are actual guru. Just like Jayananda Prabhu. But the GBC says Srila Prabhupada, who is full with all the transcendental potencies of Lord Nityananda, cannot initiate. They say his books, which are full of transcendental potencies, cannot instruct -- unless and until you accept another guru as your life and soul. Srila Prabhupada is directly available now, as he was before. Only difference now is that he no longer communicates directly with foolish neophytes. Therefore, we all must carefully study his books. We can find nothing in Srila Prabhupada’s books that says a system of officiating acaryas constitutes a deviation from Vaisnava principles when the system is maintained after the acarya’s departure.

Student: Can you say again?

Disciple: Because the GBC thinks Srila Prabhupada is gone, they think it is impossible for him to accept new disciples. Therefore they trashed his final order, which was sent as an official document to the whole Society. But nothing in Srila Prabhupada’s books say an empowered Vaisnava acarya is limited. He’s as independent as Krsna Himself. This truth is clearly stated in Srila Prabhupada’s books.

Student: Is there anything in Srila Prabhupada’s books that says his disciples should initiate their own disciples in ISKCON?

Disciple: Nothing. But his books encourage everyone to become guru. How to become guru? Just accept Lord Caitanya’s teachings and try to preach.

Student: What if there were someone right now in ISKCON who was fully Krishna conscious. Could he act as diksa-guru?

Disciple: Would he want to violate Srila Prabhupada’s final order for ISKCON? Would he want to cause division and controversy by doing something Srila Prabhupada’s never authorized?

Student: Maybe Prabhupada or Krishna told him to be a diksa-guru. Don’t you think that’s possible? What if one of your Godbrothers who is very advanced told you, “Krishna wants me to be guru. In a dream Prabhupada told me to initiate my own disciples.”

Disciple: If someone makes such claims, we may consider, “Should I accept my Godbrother’s dream or just follow what Srila Prabhupada said to do.”

Student: Then you say such a dream must be a fraud?

Disciple: Let’s just do what Srila Prabhupada said to do in his formal written order sent to every leader in the Movement. If we can’t follow that, then what’s the solution?

Student: If he -- a very advanced devotee -- left ISKCON, could he initiate?

Disciple: Why would he not want to remain in ISKCON and initiate on behalf of Srila Prabhupada?

Student: Because, maybe, Prabhupada told him he should become a regular guru.

Disciple: Then let him do it -- if he’s really empowered. Then you can join his mission. But that’s not the issue for those who want to remain in the institution Srila Prabhupada personally created. Srila Prabhupada’s order for leaders representing ISKCON is clear. It requires no interpretation, modification, or change. And certainly we can’t just reject it, the way the GBC has done.

Student: If it is so clear, why all the confusion?

Disciple: Confusion arises due to our not strictly following Srila Prabhupada, due to offenses, due to mixed motives, or due to contamination by the modes of nature. We can only blame ourselves for this confusion.

Student:Is it possible you are confused?

Disciple: Not as long as I accept Srila Prabhupada’s instructions. If I’m looking for ways to avoid his order, I’ll remain confused even after reading his books.

Student: Then you admit Prabhupada’s books are not enough? We need the advice of a senior disciple, like you?

Disciple: Srila Prabhupada’s books are enough if you study his books sincerely in the association of other sincere devotees. Actual sadhu-sanga helps us all.

Student: How can untrained neophytes understand who is sincere?

Disciple: Anyone can understand, by Krsna’s grace. We should pray for actual sadhu-sanga, or the association of devotees who can help us understand and accept Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada has given the standard for understanding who is a pure devotee. He indicated Jayananda Prabhu was a pure devotee. And everyone can appreciate how Jayananda Prabhu always remained a servant of Srila Prabhupada’s mission and never expected honor nor position nor followers. Srila Prabhupada wanted us all to remain humble servants in his mission. He never taught that to become a diksa-guru is the goal of devotional service.

Student: But to recognize sincere devotees, don’t we have to first be pure ourselves? Devotees say different things, and the GBC is saying something else.

Disciple: Be sincere to follow Srila Prabhupada. Accept him as spiritual master. What’s the problem with that idea?

Student: How can devotees be sincere to accept Srila Prabhupada as spiritual master when ISKCON leaders say they need a guru other than Prabhupada?

Disciple: Hear from Srila Prabhupada directly. Even the GBC admits that Srila Prabhupada can still be everyone’s instructing guru. If we understand this fact, why should we blindly accept GBC doctrine? Ask questions. Study Srila Prabhupada’s books. Pray to Srila Prabhupada. He came to save us all. Hari bol!