09/07/1998 - 2168

"Do You Know Your Brother Talks to Statues?"

Germany (VNN) - "They said to my sister, 'Do you know that your brother talks to statues?'"

Excerpts from a darsan of Harikesa to Bhramika das inAbenteuer, transcribed from an audio tape, recorded on August 30,1998.

Sri Visnupad: You shouldn't call it varnasrama, you should call it socialdevelopment and don't say brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas, sudras. Sayguides,leaders, economic developers and tradesmen, okay? Use those kind ofdesignations. And it's just basically what it boils down to, that we needsomebody to have a good idea and to train people, educate people and togivethem some kind of healing or therapy. Because most people in the world aredamaged. Most people in the world were abused as children or had manydifficulties. And had not proper love. Because everybody in the world wantsto be loved. They want to love and be loved. That is the basic principal inthe world. To love and be loved.

So everybody wants to love and be loved. But they don't know how to love.And therefore they can't accept love, you know. People they don't know howto love others 'cause they don't feel love within themselves, because theyare so damaged. So they get married and they expect to be loved, to loveandbe loved. For short period of time they feel love and loved. But them whenthey find out what their partners actually are like really, then they getdisappointed. They have false expectation, they feel very hurt. Becausetheydidn't really loved the person as a person for what they were. They lovedthem for what they thought they were. Right? What they wanted them to be.Just like every woman puts the man, "He's gonna protect me, he's gonna takecare of me." And every man puts the woman, "She's gonna love me and be thisand that and other thing." But you know, they have needs. One wants it hot,one wants it cold, one wants it this.. You have to learn to adjust andcooperate and respect each other and accept each other for what you are.Andtake care of children and love children and help children. Not that like inISKCON we send them all over the place and don't care of them and call themall Maya and this and that and other thing.

There has to be actually loving relationship, and we have to help eachotheras people. And when we are solidly situated properly, then very easily wewill be able to chant Hare Krsna and be Krsna conscious. Just like you aresaying you are not chanting. Why? because materially you are not situatedproperly, and because you are so disturbed in your mind and heart you can'tchant. Because you don't want to. Right? But if you're feeling verytogether, and peaceful, and happy, and balanced then chanting is awonderfulthing. Singing the names of Krsna and singing like that is wonderful thing.The Deities are wonderful. But people are so unbalanced materially and soimproperly situated. And there is no social structure within which they canproperly develop and learn and love each other and help each other.Therefore everything is in chaos. So the point is that first of all peoplelive terribly. They have to get freed from their very severe materialproblems. Because just chanting Hare Krsna does not cure your materialproblems, and never it was meant for that. When insane person chants HareKrsna, they don't become sane, you know. If a damaged person chants HareKrsna, they don't become less damaged. You still have to go through sometherapy. And so many our girls have had been sexually abused when they werechildren. And they don't know why they are disturbed all the time. Thentheyhave to go to psychiatrist and they find out really what's wrong with them.Or hypnotist or whatever they do. And then they find out what's wrong withthem. And then they realize why they were always (?) all this time.

So chanting Hare Krsna brings you to the highest spiritual platform. Butyoucan't get there unless you are in the mode of goodness. You have to gofirstfrom· free yourself from ignorance, free yourself from passion. Get to themode of goodness. Or at least predominately a goodness because you canneverfree yourself from passion and ignorance completely. There'll always besomemixture in the material world. But when you are predominately in the modeofgoodness, at least you have a lot of goodness, then you are very peacefuland happy and well situated. And then from that platform you can come tosuddha-sattva. That is said in the Bhagavatam in first canto secondchapter.You have to come gradually through the different modes. But we are notdoingthat in ISKCON. We still maintain all this terrible qualities, even amongstthe leaders. We cheat each other, we lie, we steal, we harm each other, wedon't take care of each other, we don't give medical treatment which peopleneeded. We have crazy situations in our movement where everything goeswrongthrough different individuals. It is really improper. Because we are notproperly situated, we can't help others. And that the real problem. Firstofall we have to be properly situated. Save yourself first is a Vedicaphorism. First save yourself, then you can help others. If you aresituatedproperly, you can help others.

So first it has to be some therapy for everybody. But I don't care if theydo it or they don't do it. But if somebody's smart and has some feelingthatthey need help, then I want to help them make a center for healing. Sometherapy center. And with the therapy center there will also be educationcenter. Different therapy and education. Education has to be. Mothers haveto be proper, fathers have to be proper, wives have to be proper. Parentshave to take care of children really protecting them nicely, loving themnicely. With respect, acceptance and real love. These things after allyou'll require. Without grhastha asrama there could be no society. Becauseonly grhasthas make society. And if you have this rule that no illicit sex,then no one wants to be grhastha. Right? Because they can't do anything. Sothey figure what's the use. Why maintain a cow if you have milk in themarket place? Maybe that's a wrong example. Or rather we should say, whymaintain a wife if you can't do anything anyway? Except (indistinct), youlose your freedom in so many things.

So therefore that rule is not there. In marriage life they can't have norelationship. I don't mean insane sense gratification and all this crazystuff. I mean the properly situated loving relationships. Like everybody inIndia does. Even Gaudiya Vaisnavas. Nobody has such a rule except us. Thenpeople can actually start to develop themselves properly, as grhasthas.Thenevery brahmacari will become a grhastha, because it's normal. So we won'thave all this young people or whoever they are taking sannyasa and beingvery imbalanced and improperly situated. Everyone should go through thegrhastha asrama fully. And that's the Vedic way, that's the proper way.Dharma, artha, kama, moksa [stresses the word 'kama']. Right? That'snormal,normal. That's normal stuff.

Okay, so we have to give therapy to people so that they can become cleansedand healthy. Then we have to give training and the education to all people.I'm not just talking about devotees. What's the use of a small group ofdevotees being in a society? Which just have some buildings which have nolife in them. Empty buildings, empty shells, you know. With rules andregulations that no one can even remember or care about. And followingpeople· you don't know what they are doing really. Materially speaking,cannot help anybody. This is not proper. You should all be well situated.Everyone should have a job. Everyone should have income. Everyone shouldhave a house. Everyone should have a little land so that they can havegarden. Everyone should take care of themselves, everyone should havemedical treatment. Everyone should have family, have the cloth for thechildren. Proper everything for their children. Everyone should be wellsituated themselves. Best thing is on the land, you know, in villages.Village communities, where everyone has a piece of land and everyone has ahouse. And everyone can grow their own food and live nicely and help eachother. Next you a neighbor needs help, or person down on the street needshelp, everyone goes and helps them. If somebody's sick everyone goes andhelps him. If somebody has a problem everyone goes and helps him. This isproper life, not all this crazy institutionalized communism which destroyseverything. Communism is useless, everyone knows that. Everyone exceptISKCON knows that. And of China.

So the point is that we have to make some changes which we can't do withinthis movement 'cause everybody is too close-minded. They don't have thevision to understand what's wrong. Therefore it has to be done outside ofISKCON. Therefore I'm no longer in ISKCON. But I really want to help you.I'm not interested in an institution which is crazy, which is a big pile ofgarbage. I want to deal with people, not institutions, not laws, and rules,and regulations. There's enough rules and regulations in the karmi society.We don't need that. So therefore I want to do something different whichwillactually help people. And I don't care if they are devotees or nondevotees.There're beautiful people everywhere in the world, very nice people in theworld. Just like here in (?), wherever I go I'm just having so much fundealing with people. It is just so wonderful to deal with peoplepersonally.You know, they're so nice, some people. You deal with them nicely, and theyare immediately nice. I mean they immediately respond. It's incredible!You're just a little bit nice with somebody, and he immediately responds.Because everybody starving for it. Even in our movement. People arestarvingfor love, they are starving for appreciation, they are starving forrespect.They want these things. But we don't do it! So we have to start doing itourselves, and then immediately everybody will respond. When you areloving,kind, happily situated person, everybody will respond you, and will want tobe with you all the time.

So, anyway, we'll make a healing center first for anybody who needs it.Thatmeans devotees, nondevotees, anybody. And education center for everybodywhoneeds it. Not just, you know, some narrow-minded ISKCON thing. It should befor anybody. Because the suggested way of life is the same for everybody,really. Basically it all boils down, everybody can be happy in the sameexact way. And then· after that people will gradually make their owncommunities. So first what I want to do, near (?). We cooked this idea outtogether. It's not fully developed', but its pretty well. The scheme ispretty well developed. Which is that we'll have a place somewhere, workingwith trained psychiatrists, trained doctors, trained therapists, everybodywith degrees. Completely legal. We'll accept it whatever it is. And thenwe'll train up maybe two or three experts for Russia. Russians will come.

Wehave to pick the most qualified people in Russia. And we'll train them howto do what we are doing here. And I will go there and then do the samethingthere. Make a center there. I will not do it personally I will just set itup. Right? And then those trained people, they will do the same thing inRussia. Right? And then you can build community around clean people.Becauseif you just go now and start buying lend and building houses, you're gonnafill it with insane people. Right? That's not good, you should wait. Youshould just get yourselves economically together. Right? You can buy land,and you can maybe buy things to maintain.

But the first thing we should do is what here in Germany. Because we have œqualification here to do it. And then to train some Russians, and then theywill do it there. It may take two years to train them properly, because itis not a simple thing. They have to learn enormous things. It's not sosimple to heal people, it's not so simple. You know. We take it cheaply,it's not a cheap thing, it is a very difficult thing. We have to developthis education. And I'd like to work with qualified people. That means Ihave to pay them. It's not a cheap thing, you know, we have to paysalaries,big salaries because these are very highly qualified people. So we need alot of money here to do that. And then we'll train up Russians. And in themeantime if you have extra money you can buy real estate, community places,farm, land where you can build, and also you just find land. And maybe youcan accumulate materials for building and everything. Right? Or you canmaybe get houses or whatever. If you have extra money. And then in this waywe can then prepare community there. And then we can create people to gointo that community. That's essential, because you just can't put anybodyinthere like in ISKCON they've just put any unqualified person in the temple.And they all have to live together, and they all are totally different kindof people. In the community there should be a compatible kind of people.People who have the same kind of ideas in the heart and the same desires intheir heart, you know. Which basically everybody has. But they should beopen-minded people, they should be spiritually minded people, not totalmaterialists. Although total materialists are sometimes better then thespiritualists because at least they have a heart. They're not cold andimpersonal people. So basically... you don't have to worry about such. ButIthink I finished that, basically, it is... Is that okay?

Bhramika: We have ideas about· to finance devotees who would like to belikevaisyas, like traders.

Sri Visnupad: Yes, but you should only do that with contracts.

Bhramika: Yes, right.

Sri Visnupad: Absolutely legal contracts. Because they will cheat you.Devotees learned how to cheat very well. And you nave to be very careful.And they are lazy also. They don't work. They'll think, "Oh, I have to gotochant". Or, "It's too much for me", or, "It's Maya", or this, or that.That's nonsense. Everybody has to work properly (indistinct). "You can dowhatever you want and whenever you want". I used to work twelve hours aday.

But I saw other people, you know, they are just spaced around, do this, dothat. Slow working. What I can do in five minutes takes them five hours.Because they are not committed. Therefore you have to pay them and demandthem. In other words, "You'll get this and this and this, but you work likethis and this and this." You have to employ, just be very strict with that.And with others, you give them loan or you give them investment and youdemand return. It must be like that.

Bhramika: Yes. We would like to find people who can run the company, yousee, like ksatriyas, who can run.

Sri Visnupad: Ksatriyas, they don't run companies, they run states.Companies are ran by vaisyas. Vaisya doesn't mean just businessman, it alsomeans managers. Or organizational manager of a company to make business.That you have to find.

Bhramika: And when we found such people and then give them money withagreement.

Sri Visnupad: That they must accomplish certain thing.Bhramika: Yes. And give them percentage from the profit, like 50 percentor.

Sri Visnupad: Yes, something reasonable. Not tons.

Bhramika: Something reasonable, yes, maybe 25 is okay.

Sri Visnupad: They're all puffed up. They think themselves very great, butthey are not so great. You have to really work hard and earn your money. Noone should just demand anything. If somebody comes in and says, "I'm a bigtime manager, you give me a lot of money." So you say "Ok. We'll guaranteeyou at the end a bonus. Right? If you accomplish. If you accomplish, you'llget a bonus. You don't accomplish, no bonus. We make rules what you gonnaget." Not that you just give somebody money, and he says, "Okay I'll dosomething." And two weeks later or month later or year later he's gone, hedid nothing and you loose. So you give it on a bonus basis or somethinglikethat.

Nobody should be dependent, "Give me money, give me money." Everyone shouldbe self-sufficient. Only brahmanas who are doing research and writing andeducation, they should be given the money to do that. Support. Whatevertheyneed. Or even more. Give them a salary. Why should anybody be justdependent? Give them a good salary. Let them write, let them research, letthen do good things.

Bhramika: Sri Visnupada, is it right that ksatriyas can't run company,because this is.

Sri Visnupad: Ksatriya· And who is a ksatriya? If somebody wants to manageacompany, he is not a ksatriya, he is a vaisya. Like Nanda Maharaja was avaisya, but he was a king of the vaisyas. So you can have vaisyas who arelike kings, who are not ksatriyas but they have a quality of protectingvaisyas, helping them organizing them and everything. But that is not aksatriya, that's a vaisya. It's just different way in which vaisya...Everybody manages, you see. Being a manager does not mean you are aksatriya. Everybody manages. Brahmanas manage their writing and theirpapersand their puja and their families. Ksatriyas manage states and armies, andvaisyas manage businesses and cow protection and farming. It is a bigmanagement. Sudras manage all kind of things. Everybody manages everything.Every person manages.

Bhramika: What can we do with our chanting because we had no time, we haveinspired very much.

Ajata Yauvana: We slept only four hours during...

Sri Visnupad: That's what I've being doing, too. Sometimes I go to bed at11:30 and get up at 2:00. And because I'm just so busy I have no time, youknow. It takes hours to do all this kind of stuff. But now I'm morepeaceful, I'm much more peaceful because everything finished because ofthem. They are so wonderful, they did everything for me. They are so great,I can't believe it. They gonna get so much mercy you can't imagine. Becausethey did such wonderful things for me. And I was helpless. And I wasrunningall over the place. Even with their help I'm still running all over theplace. I know exactly what you're going through. But for me it's gonna belast, but for you it's difficult. So you chant when you can, it doesn'tmatter when you do it. Like now I still haven't chanted one round and I'mgonna go immediately after this conversation to the forest and chant. So,when you can you chant. If you can't chant 16, okay, chant what you can.Thepoint is to be Krsna conscious, you know. Not that you have to do this andhave to do that. I knew people have been chanting 16 rounds for years andthey are not Krsna conscious. I know people haven't been chanting andthey're Krsna conscious. Prabhupada chanted maximum four rounds a day.Maximum. I know, because I've used to be with him in the middle of thenight. I know what he was doing. Maximum four rounds. Not more than 20minutes. Maybe sometimes 30 minutes of chant.

Bhramika: But when we chant we have difference (indistinct).

Sri Visnupad: When you chant, you just it the best you can. Because thequality counts more than the quantity. You have to really have quality. Youhave to feel something for Krsna, you know. Like people go in front of theDeity, what do they see? They see a statue. Why? Because they are statues.When you are statue, the Deities are statue, because He reciprocates. Andif you are person, the Deity will be a person, because They reciprocate.Radha and Krsna reciprocate. The more you are person, the more you havelovefor Them, the more They are persons, the more They have love for you. Andyou can actually speak with Them. And they will speak to you. You knowtheseEC members they are so foolish, they were talking with my sister. Theytriedto trick her in different ways like to get her to sign away my freedom sothat I to go to the mental institution. Can you imagine that? I've talkedabout that with a head police commissioner here he said that totallyillegalin Germany. They could go to jail for years for that. Anyway, they were sostupid they don't even know what they were doing, but anyway. They also didsomething funny with my sister, they said, "Do you know that your brothertalks to statues?" And then my sister said, "Wait a minute here. If youconsider that these statues are God then why can't he talk with them? Ofcourse, God can talk. Right?" My sister. She is just a plain karmi. Andthese are big-big-big leaders. And she understands.

Ajata Yauvana: I'm so (indistinct) for your mercy.

Sri Visnupad: No, mercy you get from Krsna. Radha and Krsna, you get from,not from me. But maybe I can help you. I'll just give you some suggestions.I'm not gonna order you to do anything, I'm not gonna make you do anything,you do what you like. I'll just make some suggestion, that's all. Please,you don't accept anything I say as an order. Absolutely not. If you likewhat I say and you agree with what I say and you think it makes sense andyou can accept it with your own intelligence, you challenge it in differentways· Don't just accept what I say. You should really think about itclearly. And if you like this project and you it makes sense and it canhelppeople, then let's work together. Okay?

Ajata Yauvana: What can you suggest us right now?

Sri Visnupad: I did.

Sri Visnupad: Okay? Can I go?

Ajata Yauvana: Thank you very much. Thank you