08/16/98-2035

Confusion Amongst Harikesa Disciples

Europe (VNN) - Some texts from COM (unedited):

Text COM:1603322 <CIS:145784> (60 lines)
From: Krsnaloka (Moscow Radio)
Date: 16-Aug-98 12:25
To: SV disciples [1656]
Cc: RFF (Regional Free Forum for HR/SLO/YU/BiH/MAC)
(sender:
Dadhibhaksa (das) HKS (Rijeka - HR))
Cc: SV CIS-disciples <sv.cis-disciples@veda.iskcon.net>
Subject: ISKCON revival manifesto
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Dear devotees all over the world!
Please accept our humble obeisances. All glories to Srila
Prabhupada!

ISKCON revival Manifesto

The whole ISKCON all over the world is moaning. Why some people
leave ISKCON? They are also Srila Prabhupada's children and
grandsons tortured by mismanagement of ISKCON. There are many
arguments and we are reading letters of ISKCON particular members
full of tears, bewilderment, pain and accusations of their own
organization or what is happening in it. Beating children,
humiliation of women, driving away incapable devotees, small or
serious moral insults of devotees. We can't stand and bear it
any more! And how was it possible for Harikesa Swami Sri
Visnupad to stand it?!

Why do you think that he who decided to
lose all his positions, authorities, posts and money for the
happiness of each and every ISKCON member isn't suffering? Sri
Visnupad has many proposals and plans how to revive ISKCON and
make it's members happy. But GBC and GBC's executive committee
didn't want to share with him his projects instead they rejected
him and even humiliated for his attempt to do something really
new and good for the whole ISKCON world. The majority of ISKCON
members is suffering. People write letters to our organizations
and our leaders who can't help them. If we as members of
organization are suffering for it, the same as Sri Visnupad is
doing, we can't and have no right to keep silence! ISKCON has to
be revived! And the importance of each ISKCON member must be
taken into consideration and become the basis of new ISKCON. The
guideline is -to protect devotees as it's revealed in sastras but
not hesitantly postponing the solution of their problems for
later. When we manage to create better conditions for each
devotee's spiritual and material happiness our organization will
be prosperous and it will not throw away even those who dedicate
their life for the embodiment of Srila Prabhupada's ideas and
establishing of prosperous ISKCON. Having rejected Sri
Visnupada's genius ideas about ISKCON development and having
underestimate their importance so called ISKCON government or GBC
executive committee revealed openly their unwillingness for
radical changes and showed their full misunderstanding of the
real situation in ISKCON! THEREFORE WE CLAIM: THEY MUST
IMMEDIATELY RESIGN AS A "GOVERNMENT" THAT IS UNABLE TO CREATE
FAVORABLE CONDITIONS FOR THE WELLBEING AND SPIRITUAL PROGRESS OF
THEIR SUBJECTS, if they have even small idea of what is honor,
justice and respect towards human rights, declared and signed
even by karmic governments. WE HAVE TO UNITE ISKCON AND CREATE A
NEW GOVERNMENT. Everybody want only happiness and prosperity of
ISKCON, including each and every devotee. Everybody who has
money, position, possibility for traveling freely all over the
world and who observe with their own eyes all difficulties of our
movement -remember that it is a movement of personalists. And you
are doing nothing now for making any positive changes. You are
sleeping shifting responsibility from one to another. You are too
much formalistic, open your heart and intelligence! We hope that
members of GBC who think objectively will discuss it and face the
truth and then decide: do they go with Srila Prabhupada who
wanted each ISKCON devotee to be happy or continue to support
those whose leadership brought troubles to many devotees!? P.S.
SOS! Russian devotees are obstructed to send messages and cut
from Free Forum and other conferences of Swedish com Raktambara
d. is in charge of. This also do not coincide with civil rights
of human beings. What to say about vaisnava attitude! Please
spread this message as widely as possible. Your servants, The
unit of Russian disciples of Sri Visnupad
(Text COM:1603322) -----------------------------------------

Text COM:1596318 (17 lines)
From: Locan (das) HKS (Lund - S)
Date: 14-Aug-98 13:28
To: SV disciples [1627]
Subject: Regarding the GBC presentation
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Sri Visnupada has not fallen down into illicit sex and to even address the
situation of his ashram under his present condition seems improper to me. He
has not fallen down and I would suggest we wait for the outcome of the issue
and see what happens. Even if has expressed a desire to marry this lady, we
should take that desire for what it is, a rather childish and naive
assumption that she will marry him and some picture of some "mission"
connected with their union.

I think that just by the development of situation itself he has become
obsessed by the idea of "her" as the only person he trusts and therefore the
attachment.

Having been almost daily in contact with him I would not really call his
attachment to her a sexual one, but rather a somewhat idealistic one. I can
also see that the interest for her is somehow diminishing. He "wants" to
remain attached but he has to force himself to do that. It is not any longer
his main preoccupation.
(Text COM:1596318) -----------------------------------------


Text COM:1596675 (99 lines)
From: Ahahsamvartaka (das) HKS (NE-BBT, Moscow - R)
Date: 14-Aug-98 16:09
To: SV disciples [1628]
Subject:
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Please accept my humble obeicances!
All glories to His Divine Grace Sri Visnupada!
All glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada!

All devotees of ISKCON know great contribution of Sri Visnupada for this
movement. And Srila Prabhupada called him "the most important grand disciple
of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur." Sri Visnupada is dearest
disciple of Srila Prabhupada. He dedicated his whole life to Srila
Prabhupada and Lord Krishna. He is a real mahatma - great personality.

But even if we theoretically accept, that great personality like Sri
Visnupada does something in a wrong way we can't estimate this from our
materialistic point of view. And result of this judjing, even if it made in
a cultural way, is shown in the history of Brahma and his sons:


Bhag. 3.12.28
"O Vidura, we have heard that Brahma had a daughter named Vak who was born
from his body and who attracted his mind toward sex, although she was not
sexually inclined towards him."

Bhag. 3.12.29
"Thus, finding their father so deluded in an act of immorality, the sages
headed by Marici, all sons of Brahma, spoke as follows with great respect."
PURPORT
"The sages like Marici were not in the wrong in submitting their protests
against the acts of their great father. They knew very well that even though
their father committed a mistake, there must have been some great purpose
behind the show, otherwise such a great personality could not have committed
such a mistake. It might be that Brahma wanted to warn his subordinates
about human frailties in their dealings with women. This is always very
dangerous for persons who are on the path of self-realization. Therefore,
great personalities like Brahma, even when in the wrong, should not be
neglected, nor could the great sages headed by Mareci show any disrespect
because of his extraordinary behavior."


This is reference from Krsna-book,

Chapter 85 - "Spiritual Instruction for Vasudeva, and the return of the Six
Dead Sons of Devaki by Lord Krsna."

"...After Lord Krsna heard the prayers of Bali Maharaja, He spoke as
follows: "My dear King of the demons, in the millennium of Svayambhuva Manu,
the Prajapati known as Marici begot six sons, all demigods, in the womb of
his wife, Urna. Once upon a time, Lord Brahma became captivated by the
beauty of his daughter and was following her, impelled by sex desire. At
that time, these six demigods looked at the action of Lord Brahma with
abhorrence. THIS CRITICISM OF BRAHMA'S ACTION BY THE DEMIGODS CONSTITUTED A
GREAT OFFENCE ON THEIR PART, AND FOR THIS REASON THEY WERE CONDEMNED TO TAKE
BIRTH AS THE SONS OF THE DEMON HIRANYAKASIPU. These sons of Hiranyakasipu
were thereafter put in the womb of mother Devake, and as soon as they took
their birth Kamsa killed them one after another. My dear King of the demons,
mother Devake is very anxious to see these six dead sons again, and she is
very much aggrieved on account of their early death at the hand of Kamsa. I
know that all of them are living with you. I have decided to take them with
Me to pacify My mother, Devake. After seeing My mother, all six of these
conditioned souls will be liberated, and thus in great pleasure they will be
transferred to their original planet..."

And nobody can estimate Sri Visnupada from materialistic point of view.

In Padma Purana stated:
"One who thinks the Deity in the temple to be made of wood or stone, who
thinks of the spiritual master in the disciplic succession as an ordinary
man, who thinks the Vaisnava in the Acyuta-gotra to belong to a certain
caste or creed or who thinks of caranamrta or Ganges water as ordinary water
is taken to be a resident of hell."

Also in The Nectar of Instraction, 6 stated:
"Being situated in his original Krsna conscious position, a pure devotee
does not identify with the body. Such a devotee should not be seen
from a materialistic point of view. Indeed, one should overlook
a devotee-s having a body born in a low family, a body with a bad
complexion, a deformed body, or a diseased or infirm body.
According to ordinary vision, such imperfections may seem prominent
in the body of a pure devotee, but despite such seeming defects,
the BODY of a PURE DEVOTEE cannot be POLLUTED. It is exactly like
the waters of the Ganges, which sometimes during the rainy season
are full of bubbles, foam and mud. The Ganges waters do not become
polluted. Those who are advanced in spiritual understanding will
bathe in the Ganges without considering the condition of the water."

Dear godbrothers and godsisters, at the dearth moment, nobody can safe us,
nor our material position, nor our power, nor GBC, nor BBT, nor ... But we
can be safed only by mercy of spiritual master and Lord Krishna.

I'm very grateful to Kamalamala prabhu, who defend any assault towards Sri
Visnupada.

Your servant
Ahahsamvartaka d

PS
In this story there is one more interesting moment: although Lord Brahma
was running after his daughter and was under the influence of lust -
nevertheless nobody deprived him from his position of Lord Brahma.
(Text COM:1596675) -----------------------------------------

Text COM:1550663 (26 lines)
From: Bhaktavatsala (das) HKS (D)
Date: 31-Jul-98 11:46
To: SV disciples [1513]
To: Arjuna (das) HKS (Munich - D) [6508] (received: 31-Jul-98 13:56)
Reference: Text COM:1547333 by Arjuna (das) HKS (Munich - D)
Subject: Kasiraja and Ambhoda -- a disclaimer
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> Could you kindly elaborate on what supposedly has happenend.
> Or would that be problematic, and why? Thanks.

There was a period during this break down where it seemed that Sri Visnupada
said and did some things that would normally be understood as inappropriate.
But considering his condition at the time, that is in a state of total
breakdown and delirium, it would not be relevant to try to judge or examine
those things. When someone has fever and speaks deleriously, we cannot take
offence at what he says, nor judge it by normal standards. Anyone who really
cares will want to cure the fever, not argue with the delirium, as the
delerious person is not capable to deal with those arguments, and they will
not serve any purpose.

Besides that, people generally tend to hang on various bits of information
as if they were the conclusion of the affair, therefore to start examining
symptoms of the sickness as they appeared four or five weeks ago, at the
height of the disturbance would only confuse everyone as to what was the
current state of affairs.

The issue will be dealt with, but such a public forum is certainly not the
place for it, as it is a delicate issue, and peoples lives are concerned. We
are interested to afford all concerned the dignity of being able to deal
with these personal issues in some sort of privacy. I think this is a matter
of common decency.

YS BVD
(Text COM:1550663) -----------------------------------------

Text COM:1567033 (49 lines)
From: Mukhya (dd) HKS (NE-BBT)
Date: 07-Aug-98 18:12
To: SV disciples [1527]
Reference: Text COM:1561603 by Svayambhuva (das) HKS (Malmoe - S)
Subject: Open letter to Mukhya dd
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> Your first posting as to WHY it is "moderated", reveals that you have not
> understood a difference between moderation or censoring. Your first
> point about the purpose of moderation is certainly correct - "to keep in
> it only texts which fit the purpose of the conference", but the way you
> have done it is not.
>
> The praxis of moderation is usually done in a way that moderator gives
> first a private notice to the offender, then public one, and on the third
> time the offender is removed/suspended.
>

Please download the rules for COM from (COM) System (Info) and you will see
that what I am doing doesn't violate the COM policies.

> Your second argument for censorship is of much more dubious character.
> "to remove inflammatory texts which potentially may spark hot arguments
> and lead to misunderstanding, offences.."

Prabhu, please do not pick on my words. I am not a politician or a PR agent,
I am from Eastern Europe myself and have also suffered in the hands of
despotic governments. If you can't accept my reasoning, please ask
Rastrapallika why she is moderating Cooking seminar or ask Navina Nirada why
he is moderating BDS.

> Please let us, mostly fully grown people, to take care of guarding
> ourselves. The censoring of that kind is leading to devotees loosing
> whatever little trust they had in the system. This is in the best
> traditions of "Big Brother watching", which is especially painful for
> those who, like myself, suffered in the hands of despotic governments.

I am not representing the system any more than you or anyone else in the
family of Sri Visnupada's disciples. And do not be deluded to think that
forums outside the system (like PADA or VNN) are not monitored or moderated.
They just have a different editorial policy--to publish only anti ISKCON,
negative news--and are NOT obliged to publish your comments or refutation.

Would you like to read in SV disciples texts like this:

>> From Your letter it is abviuos that you insane or maybe you a demon??
>> Most probably you are both.
>> I am not going to explain anything for such a stupid demon as you.
>> But i can do some very good thing for you escpesaly if i have apportunity
>> to see you. I WILL JUST SPIT IN your FACE.
>> Just wait.

If you have any further objections, please contact the COM sysop, Raktambara
Prabhu.

ys, Mukhya dd
(Text COM:1567033) -----------------------------------------

Text COM:1595242 (34 lines)
From: Prithu (das) ACBSP
Date: 14-Aug-98 04:59
Cc: SV disciples [1619] (sender: Mukhya (dd) HKS (NE-BBT))
Subject: to all of you
------------------------------------------------------------
Dear devotees,
I feel so sorry about what happened to HKS and to all of you.
It surely is a very sad affair.
I hope you all will get through this very difficult time in your lives and
that
Krishna will protect and take care of you.
Please, please, do not leave this movement or go elsewhere.
While the inside is troubeled, outside there is only darkness, and even if
someone leaves the ship, there is no use like Srila Prabhupada said to do
the
same.

All of us let us hope and pray that this is not the end of the story yet.
I know this is a very difficult time for you and I pray that no-one will go
astray now or become discouraged.
Please understand that this is a young movement, performing the difficult
task
to bring a perfect culture into a place of no culture.
That by relatively young men and women we are experiencing great losses.

I am so sorry that I can't even be with you at this stage as I had to rush
to
India for some other reasons.
But I also feel that I would not be much of use to you anyway under these
present circustances.

Let us all hold on to Krishna's feet in these very difficult times and hope
that HKS is coming out of this present situation.
Please hang on to Srila Prabhupada's Lotusfeet and to your beads.
Thas all I can say to you.

This is a time of very great strain and and a huge test for all of us.
But I am sure if you are serious you will survive and not be lost.

I would cry with you if I could.
At least my poor heart goes out to you.

yspda
(Text COM:1595242) -----------------------------------------