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EDITORIAL December 6, 1999 VNN5033 Comment on this story "I Just Have A Big Problem Trusting Persons" BY JIVAN MUKTA DASA EDITORIAL, Dec 6 (VNN) — "I just have a big problem trusting persons" (like Prabhupada) The following texts have been forwarded to me by a very concerned vaisnava. Since the texts were posted on a public forum, I do not feel it is in any way improper to present them to the greater vaisnava community for its thoughtful deliberation. The texts are authored by Dhyanakunda devi dasi (KKD), a GBC Deputy who serves on the NE BBT; certainly not a new Bhaktin. As is evident by these texts, ISKCON's enemies aren't the ritviks or the Gaudiya Matha devotees; ISKCON's worst enemy is the moral, philosophical and spiritual decay that is consuming the institution from the inside out! Prabhupada excommunicated those of his disciples who were committing similar offenses. Prabhupada shed tears remembering the causeless mercy of his spiritual master. Now many are shedding tears at the offenses committed at Prabhupada's lotus feet. How will Krsna-ksestra Prabhu respond to his disciple, Duyanakunda? Will Jayapataka Swami and "RSP ( Rohini Suta Prabhu?) do anything to correct those disciples of theirs who moderate the COM "Topical Discussions" conference; moderators who allowed and encouraged talks like this to take place. The complete texts follow this summation. About Prabhupada's judgement of others Dhyanakunda devi dasi says: "I just have a big problem trusting persons who label others so easily and so unpredictably." About Prabhupada's self-confidence and absolute faith in the opinion of sastra Dhyanakunda devi dasi says: "Another things that bothers me is that Srila Prabhupada is always so sure of himself. He is fully confident in his own judgment. He is fully confident that the world is full of girls, that in certain places all people are rascals, that "Bad things means Western type of civilization," etc. Very strong, super simple black-and-white general statements. Where ordinary people would soften their statements by saying, "as far as I know," "I am convinced that," "to some degree," "in this respect," "from my experience," "most probably," "at present it looks like..." etc., Srila Prabhupada passes absolute judgemnts, and he is not even consistent in them. I am ready to believe the source of his certainty is direct link with Krsna's absolute knowledge, *if* it can be proven he was absolutely right each time. Up till then, I will rather suppose Prabhupada's absolute self-confidence was a feature of his own individual character." About Prabhupada contradicting reality Dhyanakunda devi dasi says: "There are various kinds of contradictions. Not all are easy to show when one wants to keep the post short. The easiest ones are when Prabhupada contradicts himself, or when he contradicts reality". Date: Tue, 19 Oct 99 11:41 +0200 From: "COM: Dhyanakunda (dd) KKD (NE-BBT, Almvik - S)" Dear Nayan Prabhu, Please accept my humble obeisances. "So far as my own reading of Srila Prabhupada's books is concerned over many years now, I have never *EVER* found him to contradict himself! He might have given what to us would seem to be opposing instructions to different persons at times, but that was according to the recepient, the time and the circumstance. With a little intelligence, it is always easy to judge what he meant in such instances and to understand it in the right context. "I wondered whether I should post here examples of contradictions. They would let everyone judge for themselves. But I don't want to overload the conference. Also, reading a *text* which proves how two other *texts* contradict each other is extremely tiring. Things get hopelessly ensnarled and texts get intolerably long. I have chosen a middle approach. Just a few examples plus general comments. There are various kinds of contradictions. Not all are easy to show when one wants to keep the post short. The easiest ones are when Prabhupada contradicts himself, or when he contradicts reality. These do not bother me so much, precisely because they are easy to sort out. More difficult ones are where Prabhupada's statement, or its logical consequence, contradicts another of his statements or their consequences. These you will generally only catch when you are either translating a text or searching to form an overall picture of Prabhupada's views on a specific subject. I don't have these kinds of examples at my fingertips, but I and the other BBT translators have seen them (and despaired over them) a lot. To avoid misunderstandings: when a quote is presented where SP contradicts himself or makes a controversial statement, devotees usually find ways of reconciling the problem, and these ways are often valid. This also holds true for some of the contradictions I will post here. So let us not waste time showing how "here he meant this, and there he meant that, therefore what he said makes perfect sense." I know it does. There was always a rationale behind what he said. And even when we cannot figure out what the rationale was, we can always resort to explanations like "acintya," "meant to teach us a lesson," "meant to bewilder the asuras," or, like in a recent post here, when an argument was made that Prabhupada gave sannyas to his young ksatriya-like disciples, which caused so many falldowns, another member reconciled the problem by proposing that: "Sometimes doing the right thing is not to give an example, but to speed up the process of things happening. When Narada muni told Kamsa about Krsna taking birth, was it to give an example on how to act correctly? No, it was done to speed up the process. "So one can always say, in the worst case, that SP did the wrong thing on purpose, to speed things up. There are always ways and means, even though Ockham's razor would probably cut many of them. But this is not my point. Since you state that Srila Prabhupada never contradicts himself, all I want to show is that he does. I will choose the short and easy examples, even if they are not the ones with most important implications for our lives. Examples will come in the next two texts under the same header, with some general observations. Those who do not wish to read them can skip them. Your servant, Dhyana-kunda dasi Date: Tue, 19 Oct 99 11:41 +0200 From: "COM: Dhyanakunda (dd) KKD (NE-BBT, Almvik - S)" EXAMPLE 1. HOW MANY SYLLABLES DOES THIS MANTRA HAVE? SB 2.7.8 purp. Prince Dhruva was initiated by Narada into chanting the hymn composed of eighteen letters, namely om namo bhagavate vasudevaya, SB 4.8.58 purp. One can meditate upon offering and chant the twelve-syllable mantra, om namo bhagavate vasudevaya. SB 6.8.7 verse translation: Then one should chant the mantra composed of twelve syllables [om namo bhagavate vasudevaya]. --------------------- EXAMPLE 2. HOW MANY YUGAS ARE THERE IN ONE MANU'S LIFE? SB 3.22.35 purp: seventy-one of such yugas is the duration of the life of a Manu, SB 2.7.37 purp: In the duration of life of one Manu there are more than seventy-two Kali-yugas, -------------------- EXAMPLE 3. WAS BALARAMA WITH THE BOYS IN THE PASTIME OF KILLING AGHASURA? SB 10.13.28 purp: Even Balarama did not know that all the calves and cowherd boys were expansions of Krsna or that He Himself was also an expansion of Krsna. (Dhkdd: Context makes it clear Balarama is there with all others.) KB 12: Desiring to swallow all the boys at once, including Krsna and Balarama, he sat on the path. SB 10.13.40 purp: On the day when Lord Brahma had first come [Dhkdd: this is the day when Aghasura was killed], Baladeva could not go with Krsna and the cowherd boys, for it was His birthday, and His mother had kept Him back for the proper ceremonial bath, called santika-snana. Therefore Lord Baladeva was not taken by Brahma at that time. --------------------- EXAMPLE 4. MARRIAGE SB 7.12.11 purp: A brahmana generally remains a brahmacari throughout his entire life, but although some brahmanas become grhasthas and indulge in sex life, they do so under the complete control of the spiritual master. (Dhkdd: This implies only a minority of all brahmanas marry. It also implies that, as grhasthas, they remain under constant control of their gurus.) SB 7.15 summary Among the brahmanas, some are householders and are mostly attached to fruitive activities or the betterment of social conditions. Above them, however, are brahmanas who are very much attracted by austerities and penances and who retire from family life. They are known as vanaprasthas. (Dhkdd: In this general description the brahmana community SP mentions attached grhasthas and vanaprasthas. He disregards the naisthika brahmacaris, who seemed to comprise the bulk of brahmanas in the quote above. This is not a logically absolute contradiction, but it does create confusion. A very common problem in SP's writings, mostly stemming from overgeneralization.) Mayapur, March 18, 1976 760318SB.MAY Here especially the ksatriyas, they marry many wives. There is purpose also. The ksatriyas are allowed in this way. Why? Because ksatriyas are... Generally they are king. They have got money to maintain many wives. They can do it. And they eat also very first-class vitaminous food also, so they have energy. Even our Krsna, He also married as a ksatriya so many wives. So, not like Krsna or any other, but everyone wants to keep more than one wife. Everyone wants. That is his heart's desire. And if one is able actually, he keeps. (Dhkdd: Does everyone -- meaning all men -- in this conference want to keep more than one wife?) ------------------------- EXAMPLE 5. HOW MANY VERSES DOES THE 2ND CHAPER OF THE 2ND CANTO HAVE? "...regarding the purport, 2nd paragraph to Bhagavatam 2.2.38, it is clear. Do not try to change anything." (letter to Gopiparanadhana, 28 Sep. 1976) (Dhkdd: verse 2.2.38 does not exist.) ------------------------ EXAMPLE 6. ARE ALL GRHASTHAS KARMIS? IF MARRIAGE IS NOT ALLOWED TO A BRAHMACARI, IS IT SO THAT ONLY PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN BRAHMACARIS BECOME GRHASTHAS? DOES A BRAHMACARI BECOME A KARMI WHEN HE MARRIES? Morning Walk, March 19, 1976 Mayapura According to Vedic civilization, marriage is allowed to the karmis. It is not that marriage allowed to the sannyasi or brahmacari. The karmis require sex. Therefore.... Why marriage is allowed to the grhastha? Why not to the brahmacari, vanaprastha or sannyasi? Why it is not recommended? Because the karmis require that enlivenment. Therefore they are allowed to marry. So in the European civilization it is only karmis. ----------------------- EXAMPLE 6. IS THE WHOLE WORLD FULL OF GIRL CHILDREN (STATISTICS)? The whole world is full of girls, girl children. Why? There is no potency. Potency finished. Or impotent. And if you keep one boy brahmacari, no sex life, and get him married, the first child must be a boy, must be, without any doubt. (morning walk, March 19th, 1976 Mayapura) (Dhkdd: Jagannatha Misra, Lord Caitanya's father, had eight daughters before he got his two sons. He must have had lots of illicit sex before, or...? Kardama had nine daughters before he got his son. How about Prabhupada's own father? in Bhakti Caru Maharaja's film it looks like Prabhupada has many elder sisters but no brothers.) I want to share one more example. It comes in the next text. Date: Tue, 19 Oct 99 11:41 +0200 From: "COM: Dhyanakunda (dd) KKD (NE-BBT, Almvik - S)" I have singled out this example since it's a different kind of contradiction. Not a logical one but rather psychological. Prabhupada first exhibits a very negative attitude toward one Richard, and a few sentences later, he becomes quite positive about him and sees good qualities in him. What has changed? This kind is what bothers me, personally, perhaps more than the simpler kinds. I just have a big problem trusting persons who label others so easily and so unpredictably. (garden conversation, Sept. 6, 1976 Vrndavan) Prabhupada: Let them chant whatever. We shall chant like this, Panca-tattva-sri-krsna-caitanya prabhu nityananda sri-advaita gadadhara srivasadi-gaura-bhakta-vrnda. I've explained that. Five features of Lord Caitanya. Aksayananda: He chants that mantra on his beads. Prabhupada: Who? Aksayananda: That boy Richard in Radha-kunda. Prabhupada: Rascal. That is his bad association. Therefore I say don't follow these so-called Radha-kunda babajis. Nara-kunda babaji. And they smoke bidi. I have seen. Richard is still there? Aksayananda: Yes. He's in very bad health. Prabhupada: But he has got money. Spending money there? Aksayananda: I haven't been there for a long time, but I just heard about. Prabhupada: No, he has got money. How he is spending? Harikesa: He has hundreds of thousands of dollars. Prabhupada: Where it is? Harikesa: Probably in New York. Prabhupada: So he does not bring that? Harikesa: Yes, he has money all the time. Aksayananda: Dhananjaya prabhu, he went to see him and he said he was dying. He's supposed to pass off. And he said that he had written a will and on the will he had left most of his money to ISKCON. Prabhupada: Accha? Caranaravindam: He loves you very much. Actually, he's very attracted to you Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupada: Oh. Why does he not come to us? He likes Radha-kunda. Caranaravindam: He loves Radha-kunda. Prabhupada: Determination. No, if he's in difficulty he may come. We can take care of him. Another things that bothers me is that Srila Prabhupada is always so sure of himself. He is fully confident in his own judgment. He is fully confident that the world is full of girls, that in certain places all people are rascals, that "Bad things means Western type of civilization," etc. Very strong, super simple black-and-white general statements. Where ordinary people would soften their statements by saying, "as far as I know," "I am convinced that," "to some degree," "in this respect," "from my experience," "most probably," "at present it looks like..." etc., Srila Prabhupada passes absolute judgemnts, and he is not even consistent in them. I am ready to believe the source of his certainty is direct link with Krsna's absolute knowledge, *if* it can be proven he was absolutely right each time. Up till then, I will rather suppose Prabhupada's absolute self-confidence was a feature of his own individual character. Ys Dhkdd Mahananda Prabhu expressed his objection to such comments: Date: Tue, 19 Oct 99 12:15 -0400 From: Mahananda1@aol.com In a message dated 10/19/1999 11:50:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Dvaipayana.Vyasa.RSD@bbt.se writes: Anyway I am quitting this conference because I just can't tolerate such belittling of our founder-acharya. Your servant, Nayana-ranjana das Is this a formal request to be removed Dvaipayana.Vyasa You do your job so well. May I make a humble request? Why don't you moderate the blasphemous comments of those who would dare to make the remarks about Srila Prabhupada in the first place that would cause sincere souls to vacate such a condemned environment? Why don't you have in your rules "no criticizing the pure devotees"? Then your moderation would actually serve the highest good, rather than making sure no one quotes Srila Prabhupada too extensively, etc. I request that devotees that think that this permissive attitude that allows this blatant depicting of our founding acarya is such an offensive light--write to the overseers of COM itself, in the hopes that bringing it to their attention will end this great slap in our beloved guru's face. To hear from several devotees in protest will get their attention. I am afraid the poor girl who was concerned that her postings getting out to the wrong persons is going to realize her worst fears because these words, now posted publicly about our beloved master, may very well become the topic of concern in many quarters of our movement, regretfully, Mahananda dasa Mahananda Prabhu was subsequently kick off the conference by Madhusudani Radha devi dasi, initiate of JPS, who holds Prabhupada responsible for ISKCON's child abuse debacle. In her estimation, Mahananda Prabhu's concern for the welfare of those offending Prabhupada "can have a chilling effect on free speech." Date: Tue, 19 Oct 99 10:09 -0800 From: "COM: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA)" Just wanted to let you both know that I'm going to make Mahananda "distrusted". His constant threats and put downs are getting old and he's received plenty of warnings. Below he is threatening Dhy with ISKCON sanctions *and* manages to put her down "poor girl" in one fell swoop. It's obvious that this is not the correct forum for him. I guess he'll still be able to have these discussions on com.org, but at least he won't be able to intimidate the bbt.se members. Texts like his can have a chilling effect on free speech. Madhu Date: Tue, 19 Oct 99 10:22 -0800 From: "COM: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA)" " I request that devotees that think that this permissive attitude that allows this blatant depicting of our founding acarya is such an offensive light--write to the overseers of COM itself, in the hopes that bringing it to their attention will end this great slap in our beloved guru's face. To hear from several devotees in protest will get their attention. "This is a threat "I am afraid the poor girl "Dhyanakunda Prabhu is a gorwn woman. Don't belittle her. (this is not necessarily a rule violation, just wanted to let you know) "I am afraid the poor girl who was concerned that her postings getting out to the wrong persons is going to realize her worst fears because these words, now posted publicly about our beloved master, may very well become the topic of concern in many quarters of our movement, regretfully, Mahananda dasa "This is an intimidation attempt. Taken together with your many recent texts in which you have put down or threatened other members (telling them they're offensive, that they're ruining their spiritual lives, requesting others not to associate with them etc), your position is becoming very clear. You can not tolerate other people's having opinions that are different from yours or their using their own brains. You do not even want them to have a forum or voice where they can discuss their understanding with each other. This is called intolerance. Although other people may see Prabhupada as more of a human being and less "God-like" than you do and they may feel that he has made mistakes about material matters, without feeling that this detracts from his ability to give us Krsna, *you* have taken it upon yourself to judge that this constitutes an offense, that your view of Prabhupada is the only right one and that everyone else is a blasphemer. Regretfully, you leave me no other option but to remove you from this conference. You have received numerous warnings and been given the benefit of the doubt more times than any other member. You know what the conference rules are, and in spite of your assurances to the contrary, it appears obvious that you have no inten tion of following them. It's obvious that this is not an appropriate forum for you. Fortunately, there are many other forums where you will feel more comfortable. Best wishes. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Comment on this story  Contact VNN about this storySend this story to a friend
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